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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 'Faith' in what - or who?

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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"Why do you think that our beleveing is haveing something to do with our rebirth?"

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

John 3:10-11 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

Israel had 100's of years to believe and they did not.

This is the reason we must believe that God is the One that has given those that believe the the Holy Spirit of Truth and on top of that The Spirit of Jesus Christ Himself. Without this baptism into one Spirit, all would be just like Israel seeking their salvation by works, which God cannot accept as the Faith it takes to know the Kingdom of Heaven.

John 3:12-15 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

You pick out very small pieces of what I am saying and using scripture to back it up and then you ask your antagonistic nostics questions and lead back into a works salvation. Use the whole context of the questions you ask.

Example: You chose, "We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth. It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ." This is true that this is what I wrote, but this is what proceeded it.


Only God gives to the Son, and only the Son gives to the Father, we can not give anything except not seeing life. The Holy Spirit must give each one the Faith to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Son must give the Life to the one that believes by God the Father birthing the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ in the believer, then are we truly son's of God born again of water, the water Life, Jesus Christ Himself and the Spirit, The Spirit of Christ by the Holy Spirit sent by the Father at the Son's prayer request.

Plus much much more. Proof your question by the scripture I gave.

John 3:31-36 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. And what He hath seen and heard, that He testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony. He that hath received His testimony hath set to His seal that God is true. For He whom God hath sent speaketh the Words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This is what follows our arrogance of trying to make salvation our works.

John 3:12-15 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

How shall we believe? Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Jhn 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

We believe only because Christ wants us to believe. Without the Holy Spirit none would be born again and none would believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God unless the Father gives them revelation by His Spirit.

Acts 13:39-42 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

1 Peter 1:20-25 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

By Whom do we believe? By Him, By Him, By Him
Who is the Seed Rebirthed in us. Jesus Christ in you.

Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/12/6 0:48Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
[u]We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth.[/u] It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ.


I meant to say Why [b]don't[/b] you think that our beleveing is haveing something to do with our rebirth?
But then you answered my question that I asked wrong and contradict yourself.

Why I meant to ask "why [b]don't[/b] we have something to do with our rebirth?" because you said there is nothing to do with it.
However, Faith has something to do with it and that is our choice in believing.

Quote:
You pick out very small pieces of what I am saying and using scripture to back it up and then you ask your antagonistic nostics questions and lead back into a works salvation. Use the whole context of the questions you ask.


Faith has nothing to do with works salvation.
If it does, please prove it with Scripture.

Quote:
Example: You chose, "We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth. It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ." This is true that this is what I wrote, but this is what proceeded it.



What ever proceedes a false statement is still false.

 2006/12/6 14:02Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom


Logic said

Quote:
Faith has nothing to do with works salvation.

Except that you resist the thought that faith has been created in you through listening to the word of God, and you INsist upon it being YOUR faith. I think this is what Phillip means by 'works salvation'.

Quote:
Why I meant to ask "why don't we have something to do with our rebirth?" because you said there is nothing to do with it.

These verses support Phillip's point.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Note in v 12 'to become the sons of God'.

As I read that, I take that it's not a foregone conclusion. Then, John says new birth is 'by the will of God', in v 13.

 2006/12/6 15:22
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Logic said
Quote:
Faith has nothing to do with works salvation.

Except that you resist the thought that faith has been created in you through listening to the word of God, and you INsist upon it being YOUR faith. I think this is what Phillip means by 'works salvation'.


How does God creat belefe in us?
We only choose to believ.
If it was created, there would be no need to choose, it would just be there.

 2006/12/6 16:05Profile









 Re: Original Sin

Quote:
If it was created, there would be no need to choose, it would just be there.

On what basis can you say there would be no need to choose?

Just because it is there, doesn't mean you have to exercise it.

 2006/12/6 16:08
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Quote:
If it was created, there would be no need to choose, it would just be there.

On what basis can you say there would be no need to choose?

Just because it is there, doesn't mean you have to exercise it.


If you don't exercise your faith, it prooves you don't realy have faith.

Furthermore:
[b]James 2:20[/b] [color=990000]But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[/color]
Therefore, according to you, if Christ put faith in us, it is dead faith untill we exercise it.

That is rediculous.

 2006/12/6 18:20Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Logic said

Quote:
That is rediculous.

If only.

Many people are locked in fear, and never get out.

 2006/12/7 6:53
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Logic said
Quote:
That is rediculous.

If only.

Many people are locked in fear, and never get out.

My point was that it is rediculous for Christ puting dead faith in us.
Dead faith in not faith at all.

 2006/12/7 13:45Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Quote:
My point was that it is rediculous for Christ puting dead faith in us.

I didn't say 'dead faith'. I agree completely that it is [i][b]living[/i][/b] faith.

Also, I agree with Phillip, that it is faith of a different quality from the faith a human being brings to bear.

On [i]my[/i] believing the gospel, I was dependent on the faith God created in me, and gifted to me. The most my human faith could do, was believe that His faith was able to make salvation work for me. That's my testimony.

 2006/12/8 14:26
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
On [i]my[/i] believing the gospel, I was dependent on the faith God created in me, and gifted to me. The most my human faith could do, was believe that His faith was able to make salvation work for me. That's my testimony.



Why did you italicize the word "[i]my[/i]"?

How is your faith created by God?

Isn't it by giving you the knowledge that you need to know for the way of salvation and to comprehend it?

Given by, you hearing the Word.

When one comprehends the way of salvation, one acts upon the knowledge he receives by hearing, this is faith.

Please define and make a distinction of "human faith" and "His faith"

When you say, "His faith was able to make salvation work for me."

This is what You are saying in reality:
His believing was able to make salvation work for me.

Faith and believing are the same word in Greek.

When you read, "the faith of Jesus"

the Greek says, "the belief of Jesus"
[b]2Thes 2:13[/b] [color=990000]But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and [b]faith/belief[/b] of the truth:[/color]

Please use the E-sword on KJV+ and point to the Strings No.#4102

How is belief created in you, and gifted to you?

By showing you the Truth and you just believing.

It is your responsibility to believe.

Quote:
Also, I agree with Phillip, that it is faith of a different quality from the faith a human being brings to bear.


Please tell me the difference in quality, and don't make it a difference in loving the truth or not as in another post on this thread.

I tell you the truth, I am not trying to be argumenitive, but I can not understand how you think that belief is a gift given and created in us when one believes by there own volition.

It is no different in any other kind of belief accept the object of the belief is God and it pertains to eternity.

I believe in George Bush, I never met but I believe he is real.
I put my trust in him to do what he does.
Who gave me this faith? George Bush didn't, I chose to acknowlege the fact based on the evidences and witneses.


I believe in Jesus, I never met but I believe He is real. I put my trust in him to do what He does.
Who gave me this faith? God didn't, I chose to acknowlege the fact based on the evidences and witneses.

The only difference is the scope of what the belief is in, not the belief it’s self.

 2006/12/8 17:10Profile





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