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 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Quote:
Can you please explain how Jesus, knowing He is God, needs hope even though He knows for fact that He is that which we hope for?

I believe He was crying out to God, in His capacity as a man. That puts v 9, in particular, into context.

I know that He knew he was God and the Son of God, but you seem to be intent on denying the effect on Him of His being the Son of Man, also.

Unless He was fully human, His death is worthless to us.

He was not successful against sin because He was God, but because He did not have a sinful nature [i][b]as a man[/i][/b], AND He obeyed God, in the same way as you and I are called upon to obey Him.

In that Matthew quotes from Psalm 22vv 7 and 8
All those who see Me ridicule Me; They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, [saying,] "He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!"

when he says

Matthew 27:43
He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

it is impossible to deny the prophecy is about Christ.

So, I ask again how you can deny that the man in Psalm 22 is exercising faith?

 2006/12/2 15:56
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
He was not successful against sin because He was God, but because He did not have a sinful nature as a man


Please refer to the tread of this topic "Original Sin".

He did have the "sinful nature" as a man:
[b]Romans 8:3[/b] [color=990000]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, [u]God sending his own Son in the likeness of [b]sinful flesh[/b], and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/u][/color]

All that this "sinful flesh" is, is that flesh is [b]able to sin[/b]
Quote:
AND He obeyed God, in the same way as you and I are called upon to obey Him.


Amen, by choosing to obey!

[b]Hebrews 5:8[/b] [color=990000]though being a Son, [u]He [b]learned obedience[/b] from what He suffered[/u]
[b]:9[/b] and having been perfected, He came to be the Author of eternal salvation [u]to all the ones [b]obeying Him[/b][/u],[/color]

We have Faith that is from proof and of evidence & witnesses, therefore We obey.

Jesus has Knowlege from being and seeing that which we hafve faith [b]in[/b], therefore, He obeyed.
He obayed as an example to us for our faith.

 2006/12/2 16:56Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Logic wrote

Quote:
Please refer to the tread of this topic "Original Sin".

He did have the "sinful nature" as a man:
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son [b][u]in the likeness of sinful flesh[/u], and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh[/b]:

All that this "sinful flesh" is, is that flesh is able to sin

I agree that He was capable of sin - for instance, by deciding NOT to obey His Father. But 'in the likeness of sinful flesh' does not mean His spiritual system was contaminated with Sin, as that of fallen human nature, is.

You said 'He did have the "sinful nature" as a man'. [b]This is not my belief[/b] and I don't believe it can be substantiated from scripture. Had His nature been intrinsically sinful, as ours is, He could not have been the Substitute for our death for sin. To do that, He had to be sinless, spotless, perfect (etc). The balance of these attributes is expounded by the writer of Hebrews, chapter 7:

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17 For he testifieth, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 And inasmuch as not without an oath [he was made priest]:

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

26[b] For such an high priest became us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, [u]separate from sinners[/u], and made higher than the heavens;

27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, [maketh] the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.



In v 26 'separate from sinners' conflicts with your thesis.

Also, scripture makes a difference between the nature of sin - the sin (as Young translates it) - or 'Sin' (capital s as philologos writes it) and 'sins' which are the acts committed by a person either because 'the sin', still affects them, or, because they choose against obedience to the Spirit after regeneration.

Here is a quote from philologos which explains how important is was for Jesus to have been 'separate from sinners', so that He could accomplish God's will for Him in both life and death.


philologos wrote:

[color=006699]'Christ spoke of his death as a baptism. Into what was he baptized? As a 'sin offering' He certainly bore in his body our sins. This is the figure of the scapegoat. Lev 14

But there is a darker picture in John 3:14-16 where Christ used the figure of an uplifted snake. Baptism has the effect of united the baptized into the element into which he is baptized.

“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,”
(Rom 6:5 NKJV)

This 'uniting with' in the consequence of the 'baptism into death' of verse 3.


He was baptized into what we had become. He was united with it so that the judgement that came upon Him came upon it. Once and for all. He was baptized into 'our death' and we must be baptized into His. He was united by baptism to what we were and we are united by baptism (not water) to what he is.

He became Sin and the judgement that was wreaked upon Him was wreaked upon Sin. Not 'sins'; they had to be forgiven but Sin cannot be forgiven it must be executed.'[/color]


Our regeneration depends on our acceptance of the execution of Sin in us. Jesus did not have Sin, [u]therefore, He could represent us[/u] while Sin was being executed once and for ever. (Heb 10:14)

Into this freedom we believe through faith in His work on our behalf.

 2006/12/3 15:13
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Who's faith made Adam choose Satan over God?

Who's Faith makes us choose Christ over satan?

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Who put the word of faith in the preacher?

Where did the word of faith come from?

The "word of faith" means the Gospel of God or the Word of God.

What are we born again by?

1 Peter 1:23-25 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ and He is whom we are born again through His glorious Faith which endureth forever, that we believe in God.

1 Peter 1:20-21 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

What makes us believe in God? That w,hich was foreordained before the foundation of the world and is manifest in these last times? It is by Him Him who we believe. His Faith the Author of our faith.
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

If Jesus Christ is the Author of our faith and also the finisher of our faith, our faith unto salvation can only come through and by Him. It is Christ in whom we live and move and have our being. How can man's faith accomplish this?

In Christ: Phillip, by His Faith
In Christ: Phillip, believing in His Father by His Faith that our faith and hope might be in God, Who by Him (Jesus Christ) do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead,

By Him, By Him, By Him.


_________________
Phillip

 2006/12/4 5:36Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Quote:
By Him, By Him, By Him.

Hi Phillip,

You are a real encouragement :-D Praise God!

 2006/12/4 7:40
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

dorcas wrote:

Quote:
You said 'He did have the "sinful nature" as a man'. [b]This is not my belief[/b] and I don't believe it can be substantiated from scripture. Had His nature been intrinsically sinful, as ours is, He could not have been the Substitute for our death for sin. To do that, He had to be sinless, spotless, perfect (etc). The balance of these attributes is expounded by the writer of Hebrews, chapter 7:


I agree, I was useing the term sinful nature as the flesh.
Pleas ferer to [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13412&forum=36&13]Original sin[/url] topic to understand this view.

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Who's faith made Adam choose Satan over God?


There was no faith involed, that is why Adam sined.
Quote:
Who's Faith makes us choose Christ over satan?


Our own! because of the love of the truth and therefore, the love of God.
Quote:
Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Who put the word of faith in the preacher?
Where did the word of faith come from?


His own volition based on [b]the knowlege[/b] He has of God.(1Corinth 15:34, 2Corinth 4:6,Col 3:10, 1Tim 2:4, 2Peter 1:3, 2Pe 3:18)
This vers is talking about the righteousness which is of faith(Rom 10:6)
However, Paul said, "[b]Romans 10:2-3[/b] [color=990000]For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not [b]according to knowledge[/b].
[b]:3[/b] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness,[/color]

quote]What are we born again by?

By incorruptible seed and by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We read or hear the Bible and recieve knowlege for us to process in our minds and act upon in the knowlege that it is relyable, that is what faith is (faith comes by hearing.)

Quote:
What makes us believe in God?


Loveing the truth "makes us believe in God"

Quote:
Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Why didn't you put the word "his" where it sais "our faith"?

Quote:
If Jesus Christ is the Author of our faith and also the finisher of our faith, our faith unto salvation can only come through and by Him. It is Christ in whom we live and move and have our being. How can man's faith accomplish this?


In other words, How can man's belief in Jesus accomplish this?

Same way by knowing the truth and loving it enough to put your life on it.

Quote:
In Christ: Phillip, believing in His Father by His Faith that our faith and hope might be in God, Who by Him (Jesus Christ) do believe in God, that raised Him up from the dead,


[b]By:[/b] A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act;
On the ground or reason by which something is or is not done.

Because of Him(Jesus)we do have faith in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Because of Jesus in that he is the image of the invisible God and the express image of his person(Col 1:15, Heb 1:3)
Not because He gave us faith.

It never sais [b]from[/b] Jesus we believe or have faith.

I've proven through logical reason that Jesus never had or has faith, yet you stubbornly hold to the though that he does.
Why won't you yield to common sense?

We are not so depraved that we can not believ from our own volition.

 2006/12/4 18:54Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom


Logic,

You have stated you believe the written word of God, and that your own faculty for judging truth and love (which I acknowledge is a spiritual component within all men) has made you trust in what you judge to be the written truth.

I have another question, now.

Do you believe in the spoken word of God?

 2006/12/5 10:58
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Logic,

You have stated you believe the written word of God, and that your own faculty for judging truth and love (which I acknowledge is a spiritual component within all men) has made you trust in what you judge to be the written truth.

I have another question, now.


Actualy, I don't use my own judgment, I use the Scriptures for my judgement of truth and love.

Truth does not come from with in ones self, but with out, that is why we need the bBile for our basis of truth.
Otherwise, all we have to use for a basis of truth is our own heart wich is decietful and desperatly wicked.

Quote:
Do you believe in the spoken word of God?

Isn't that just someone speeking the word of God?
If so, I do belive in the spoken word of God.

If it is anything els, we must bounce it off the writen Word of God for validity.

 2006/12/5 13:24Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Just like Faith, truth is in ones self but it did not come from ones self. The only truth is by the Holy Spirit when it comes to the things of God. Unless you are born again you cannot know or see the things of God.

John 3:2-17 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This is the finish of the birthing. Christ in you the Hope of Glory. John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Our birth, by Christ being born again in the believer is that finish, that all things including all our deeds might be wrought in God the Father by Jesus Christ in you.

When we have the life of Christ born again in us, we have received all that Christ is and All the Father intended Him to be as the Son of God, God in His providence and Plan before the foundation of the world would make every believer akin to His Nature. Man without Christ in Him cannot even begin to understand the things of God and expressed by The Son telling the highest law keeper in the Land of Israel, that he must be born again. I think this choice is so significant that He Chose to give Nicodemus this truth, that is who He came to preach that the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand, that is, I Jesus am the Christ and I am Here, I can give you new birth if you believe, and yet they could not. Not only because they would not, but also because they could not. They did not have the Truth from above given them by the Holy Spirit and by the birthing, the Nature of Faith and Truth as their new nature. That is what we have now, by the Holy Spirit, The only One who brings what Christ has said to remembrance and the Only One who is the Sealer of our Birth, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. A new nature, the Nature of the Son of God birthed in us, and we now can truly understand the truth of God and become son's of God By the Power of God in Truth by Jesus Christ. Certainly not by the same power that Nicodemus had, Christ making this plain in saying, "you are a ruler in Israel and you don't know this", we could not either, if it were not for th Holy Spirit through the Truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory, ever understand or believe either.

John 3:31-36 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: He that cometh from heaven is above all. And what He hath seen and heard, that He testifieth; and no man receiveth His testimony. He that hath received His testimony hath set to His seal that God is true. For He whom God hath sent speaketh the Words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Only God gives to the Son, and only the Son gives to the Father, we can not give anything except not seeing life. The Holy Spirit must give each one the Faith to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the Son must give the Life to the one that believes by God the Father birthing the Incorruptable Seed of Jesus Christ in the believer, then are we truly son's of God born again of water, the water Life, Jesus Christ Himself and the Spirit, The Spirit of Christ by the Holy Spirit sent by the Father at the Son's prayer request.

We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth. It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ.

After all this, then we can Love God because He first Loved us by Jesus Christ the Son.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/12/5 19:48Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Just like Faith, truth is in ones self but it did not come from ones self. The only truth is by the Holy Spirit when it comes to the things of God. Unless you are born again you cannot know or see the things of God.


Truth is not just lie faith, but faith relies on the truth.
Like the analogy of ones faith that a foot 1/2 of ice will not brake when walked on.
My faith relies on the knowlege that it is a foot 1/2.
If I don't know that it is that thick, I will not walk on it, even though it realy is that thick.

As with our faith in Christ that He will be able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy(Jude 1:24)
If I don't know that He is able, I won't put my trust in Him.

Quote:
Our birth, by Christ being born again in the believer is that finish, that all things including all our deeds might be wrought in God the Father by Jesus Christ in you.



That is the opposit of the truth, why are you twisting the scritures?
Christ is not born again in the believer, but the truth is that we were born again in in Christ!

Quote:
that all things including all our deeds might be wrought in God the Father by Jesus Christ in you.


This part is true.(John 3:21)

Quote:
When we have the life of Christ born again in us,


There it is again, We are born again in Christ that we may have life.
Quote:
we have received all that Christ is and All the Father intended Him to be as the Son of God, God in His providence and Plan before the foundation of the world would make every believer akin to His Nature. Man without Christ in Him cannot even begin to understand the things of God and expressed by The Son telling the highest law keeper in the Land of Israel, that he must be born again.


Amen!
Quote:
I think this choice is so significant that He Chose to give Nicodemus this truth, that is who He came to preach that the Kingdom of Heaven is at Hand, that is, I Jesus am the Christ and I am Here, I can give you new birth if you believe, and yet they could not.



That is because he didn't undersatnd yet.
[b]Matthew 13:23[/b] [color=990000]But he that received seed into the good ground [b]is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it[/b]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.[/color]
Understanding is apart of knowlege of the truth.
For example:
If you don't understand how 7x7=49 do you realy know it?
No,, all you have is a memorization.

Quote:
A new nature, the Nature of the Son of God birthed in us,


The new nature is being spiritualy alive, which is being in right standing with God through Christ.

There it is again. Why do you say "birthed"?
We are birthed in Him and He comes upon us and fills us.
We are birthed in Him, He is not birthed in us!

Quote:
we can not give anything except not seeing life.


Huh? what is "not seeing life?

Quote:
The Holy Spirit must give each one the Faith to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God


Please prove this in Scripture.
If this is true, then this is true also:
[b]God[/b] = Why did you not believe?
[b]Lost soul[/b] = Because you did not give me Your Holy Soirit to believe.

Quote:
We have nothing to do with our birth, we have nothing to do with our rebirth. It is all up to the Father by His Seed, Jesus Christ.


Why do you think that our beleveing is haveing something to do with our rebirth?

 2006/12/5 22:46Profile





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