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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 'Faith' in what - or who?

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Please don't try to teach me greek, I am well into my 10th year in studying Koine

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Christ has Faith, God has Faith and the Holy Spirit is the One that operated in that Faith to renew our Minds to the Mind of Christ, always being renewed from now and throughout eternity.



This does not check with reality.

Why would God need faith when He is what faith faith is in or on?

How does the Holy Spirit in the faith to renew our mind?

The renewing of your mind is our responsability because Paul tells us to be transformed by doing it in order to prove what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

By taking head to the Scriptures is how we renew our mind.

Quote:
I am not thinking with my emotions, I just don't believe I can change your mindset. This is just truth not emotions.



I am sorry, but trueth always lines up with sound logic and you have proven that you don't think that way.
Quote:
dorcas wrote:
Hi Logic,

I'm sorry again to cut to the chase here, but I feel sure you have, in the above quotes, given a true assessment of your position, in which your thoughts on faith are entrenched.

John said
We love Him because He first loved us.

There is no getting away from the fact that He died because He loved us. This is one reason it is called His passion.


How did HE love us to draw us to Himself?

By showing us the truth that we acknowleged and acted upon.

 2006/12/14 20:12Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Is it logical the God put another complete Person in the believer? "That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Is it Logical that the Holy Spirit is the only one that can teach us the things of the Kingdom of God? "He will teach you all things whatsoever I have said"

Is it logical that the faith we life by is the Faith of the Son of God? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Take out the of if you want, it still means the same thing, but don't insert "in".

In Christ by the Faith Christ, not by Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/12/14 21:42Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Is it logical the God put another complete Person in the believer? "That is Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Is it Logical that the Holy Spirit is the only one that can teach us the things of the Kingdom of God? "He will teach you all things whatsoever I have said"

Is it logical that the faith we life by is the Faith of the Son of God? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Yes those are logical, however, that don't make the faith we have His.

It is not logical that God would have faith.
It is not logical that faith would be a "substance" that God puts in us.

Please, Please, Please answer these questions:
[b]1:[/b] How is belief created in you?

[b]2:[/b] Why cant one have his own faith?

[b]3:[/b] Please define and make a distinction of "human faith" and "His faith"?

[b]4:[/b]How does God have faith?

[b]5:[/b] What is the faith that God has?

[b]6:[/b] What or who does God have faith in?

[b]7:[/b] How des Galatians 2:16 prove that faith isn't from our own volition?

[b]7:[/b] What do you call this statment:
Acknowlinging the truth and acting apon it.

[b]8:[/b] what is the diference between faith in 2 1/2 foot of ice to walk on and faith in God to live by?

 2006/12/14 22:26Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Logic asked

Quote:
6: What or who does God have faith in?

His Word - the Logos
Quote:
1: How is belief created in you?

This was mentioned a long way back in this thread. Let me put it slightly differently this time.

You probably know that there is a difference between 'create' and 'make'..... but for readers, I'll just mention it again.

To create means to bring into being from nothing.
To make means to take an existing substance and reshape it.... as in 'God formed Adam from the dust of the ground'.

Therefore, when darkness was brooding over the face of the waters which surrounded planet earth, and God [u]said[/u] (spoke His Word) 'Let there be light' and there [i]was[/i] light, that was God [i][b]creating[/i][/b] light.

In the same way, when He [i][b]speaks[/i][/b] truth to us, the receptivity of our heart to His Word enables Him to [i][b]create[/i][/b] faith in us.


This is not 'our' faith, this is His faith.

 2006/12/15 16:56
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
Logic asked
Quote:
6: What or who does God have faith in?

His Word - the Logos.


Just as I suspectrd, you don't know what faith means.

Faith is in something that you have no physiscal proof in.
However you belive it by proofs juch as witnesses and evidences.

You say that God has faith in His word, but that is a knowlage based on physicalproof for Him, because they are one.

Quote:
In the same way, when He speaks truth to us, the receptivity of our heart to His Word enables Him to create faith in us.
This is not 'our' faith, this is His faith.


What is that creative prosses?
It is showing us the truth by his witnesses(Apostles) and evidences(His Word)
We acknowlage these and act apon them and this is faith.
How can you reject this as true?

Please, answer the other questions :-)

 2006/12/15 19:49Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Quote:
2: Why cant one have his own faith?

There is nothing to stop you having your own faith. All I can say is about [i]my[/i] 'own faith' - that it was useless as a stepping stone to my salvation. I could not find assurance, based in 'my' faith. For that reason, I asked God to [i]give[/i] me faith, and He did. In a way, even being bold enough to pray that prayer, was a sign of the faith He had already created in me.

You said
Quote:
3: Please define and make a distinction of "human faith" and "His faith"?

Phillip and I have been doing that all through this thread. You have placed barriers of your own definitions in the way of receiving our testimony as valid truth. I can't do anything about that.

Quote:
4:How does God have faith?

Apart from His own word to individual believers, which creates faith in them because He believes it will - much as Jesus believed Lazarus would rise from death and come out of the tomb, or, Jairus' daughter would rise, when He spoke to her - He has given His word over centuries to the patriarchs and prophets, and has demonstrated His ability to make these words come to pass.... Is that not [i][b]His faith?[/i][/b]

Quote:
5: What is the faith that God has?

I believe this creative speaking and doing is part of His nature - of who He [i][b]IS![/i][/b]

Quote:
7: How des Galatians 2:16 prove that faith isn't from our own volition?

I'm leaving this for Phillip. :-)


Quote:
[b]Just as I suspectrd, you don't know what faith means[/b].

Perhaps we have to agree to differ on this point.....

Quote:
[b]Faith is in something that you have no physiscal proof in[/b].
However you belive it by proofs juch as witnesses and evidences.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'physical proof'.

The change that occurs in my spirit, affects my body - literally lifting me up to Him - when I exercise the faith which I receive through hearing from Him. [i]I call that physical proof.[/i]

1 John 5:10
He that believeth on the Son of God [b]hath the witness in himself[/b]: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not [u]the record[/u] that God gave of his Son.


I see that you would count yourself among those who believe 'the record' that God gave of his Son. I do also. But, I also believe when God Himself speaks to me; when the Spirit brings truth to my understanding through reading scripture, through another person's testimony, and through straightforward unexpected revelation; and when the Lord reveals Himself to me through the gifts of the Spirit.

I would say some of these are not able to be objectively observed by me, but, I can observe some of them in others, and they can also observe some in me. This two-way street of giving and receiving in the Spirit, leads to edification of the Body, even if there are only two Christians gathered together in Christ's name.

 2006/12/16 17:12









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Logic asked

Quote:
How did HE love us to draw us to Himself?

Isn't this in the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the Word made Flesh, the life, death and resurrection of the Messiah?

and answered
Quote:
By showing us the truth that we acknowleged and acted upon.

In this statement, you sound as if you are making yourself a judge of God's word, to decide whether or not it is true? This seems a risky stance to take ... unless one comes to agree with Him, of course, which is the only possible route to eternal life.


I'm wary of making any statement which sounds as if I think I had anything to do with my own salvation

 2006/12/16 17:33
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

dorcas wrote:

Quote:
There is nothing to stop you having your own faith. All I can say is about my 'own faith' - that it was useless as a stepping stone to my salvation.



Why don't you think that when you ackowlege the truth and act apon it is you doing it yourself?

Quote:
I could not find assurance, based in 'my' faith. For that reason, I asked God to give me faith.



Why couldn't you find assurance, based on your own belief?
Isn't that what one must do?

Quote:
Quote:
3: Please define and make a distinction of "human faith" and "His faith"?

Phillip and I have been doing that all through this thread. You have placed barriers of your own definitions in the way of receiving our testimony as valid truth. I can't do anything about that.


I don't just make the definitions up, they are actual definitions that are set in our onw language.

Quote:
Quote:
4:How does God have faith?

Apart from His own word to individual believers, which creates faith in them because He believes it will


God noes not [b]believ[/b] that it will, God knows it will, knowing and believeing are two dirferent concepts.
God doesn't [b]believe[/b] anything, He [b]knows[/b] all things. therefore He does not have faith(belief)

Quote:
much as Jesus believed Lazarus would rise from death and come out of the tomb, or, Jairus' daughter would rise, when He spoke to her


No, it is HIS knowlege.

Jesus did not [b]believ[/b] Lazarus would rise from death and come out of the tomb, HE [b]knew[/b] he would.

Quote:
He has given His word over centuries to the patriarchs and prophets, and has demonstrated His ability to make these words come to pass.... Is that not His faith



And no, because that is our acknowleging the truth of HIS Word that is given to HIS patriarchs and prophets and acting apon it the trust that we have that it is true.

Quote:
Quote:
5: What is the faith that God has?

I believe this creative speaking and doing is part of His nature - of who He IS!

That is not faith.
Faith is defined as [b]belief[/b] that is not based on physical proof.

[b]Hebrews 11:1[/b] [color=990000]Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.[/color]
In other words faith is substantial evidence of our hope.

Faith is not substance of things that we have already and evidence of things which we already see.

Quote:
Quote:
Just as I suspectrd, you don't know what faith means

Perhaps we have to agree to differ on this point.....


Why don't you adhere to actual facts of definitions?
Words mean specific things, when there are diferent meanings, true communication ends and reality becoumes blured.

I give real definitions that all people use and you always use your made up definitions that nobody uses in real life.

Faith and belife are synonyms.
You cant make faith any other than belife in something that can't be physicaly seen or the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to that which is a standard.
It is even "trust". You cant make faith any other than trusting in something that can't be physicaly see hear or touch.

You are makeing faith out to be something totaly diferent that what it is known to be.

Quote:
Quote:
Faith is in something that you have no physiscal proof in.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'physical proof'.


Why would you only "believe in what you see, hear and touch?
wouldn't you actualy know for a fact that what you see, hear and touch are reality?
This is the diference between faith and knowlege.

It is like you only belive that there is a heaven, but you can not see, hear, or touch it.
You don't [b]know[/b] because you have no 'physical proof' of your belife.

It is like hope. Hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for?([b]Rom 8:24[/b])


Quote:
The change that occurs in my spirit, affects my body - literally lifting me up to Him - when I exercise the faith which I receive through hearing from Him. I call that physical proof.


How do you "receive" that which you hear?
isn't it by acknowleging the truth and acting apon it?

 2006/12/16 18:11Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

If you were a Gentile and new nothing about the Israel of God except they would kill you if you went to the inner court. You new nothing about the old testament because God Himself had set aside for Himself, a people of Israel, How would you have received Paul and what he said about Jesus Christ. If you separate and rightly divide the word of truth you will see there are two different Gospels, one the Gospel of Grace through Faith. Thehe other the Gospel is of circumcision and works and mixing circumcision with believing in Jesus Christ, which Paul preached against and was killed by those that did not believe in Jesus either and killed Him. That is what Paul said in Acts 28, the Gospel of Christ will go to the Gentiles. If you look through the first 12 or 13 chapters of Acts, it is the Gospel of Peter and the 12 apostles, unto the Kingdom for Israel, from 13 on it is Paul and the Gospel to fulfill the Word of God, Grace upon Grace and that is what Paul preached his whole ministry. Paul preached first to the Jew then to Kings then to the Gentile. If you carefully separate what and where and how Paul did preach you will see this as his whole method of preaching until after Acts 28, then you will see in all his letters, it is Christ in you the Hope of Glory, and he never deviates from this format. 1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


2Cr 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Who is this given to in the Church the Body of Christ? To all those that would believe, without the Wall of Partition being anymore separating circumcision from uncircumcision. This is what will happen to Israel, the same in Paul's first miracle, Acts 13: 6-12, A Jew named Bar Jesus the sorcerer was blinded for a while because he tried to confront Paul and Barnabas who was with the Gentile whom wanted to hear Paul concerning the Gospel of the Faith of Christ, whom he had come to hear about. Paul blinded the sorcerer so the gentile could receive the Gospel, and he did. The same thing has occurred for the Church today: Acts 28:27-28 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Logic ask how do we receive the word?

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

In full context: 1 John 2:20-29 But ye have an unction from (Jesus Christ) the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue (((in the Son,))) and (((in the Father.))) And this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I (Paul) written unto you concerning them (unsaved Jews) that seduce you. But the (anointing) which ye have received of Him (Holy Spirit) abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing (Holy Spirit) teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.(Jesus Christ) And now, little children, abide in Him; (Jesus Christ)that, when He (Jesus Christ) shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him (Jesus Christ)at His coming. If ye know that He (Jesus Christ)is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him. (Jesus Christ) Amen

This is how we receive or righteousness, wisdom, sanctification, justification, Faith and our Life. It is all of The Holy Spirit by, through, and in Jesus Christ and the Father who are birthed in us, that is God the Father who has changed our very nature, to Christ Nature, not be as Christ or a Christ, but Like Christ the opposite of the Lie of Satan to Adam.

Genesis 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and (((ye shall be as gods,))) knowing good and evil.

Believing by the quickening and anointing of the Spirit, by the Unction of Jesus Christ and the Father, a new son in Him: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2006/12/19 4:24Profile









 Re: 'Faith' in what - or whom

Logic asked

Quote:
Why don't you think that when you ackowlege the truth and act apon it is you doing it yourself?

Because one is supposed to be abiding in Christ, with His life flowing through the Holy Spirit. One's life become totally dependent on [i][b]His[/b][/i].

An acknowledgement of the truth - yes, I 'do' that. But, what has 'the truth' done to me, by making me aware of it? Isn't Jesus Christ the Truth? And isn't acting upon His revelation to my understanding, simply my [i][b]response[/i][/b] to what HE [u]has done[/u]?

Quote:
Why couldn't you find assurance, based on your own belief?
Isn't that what one must do?

I think those are questions for the Lord, not me. Nothing I did gave me 'assurance' of any kind of eternal quality, such as I have now.

Quote:
I don't just make the definitions up, they are actual definitions that are set in our onw language.

Ah! Again you are using the human standard to judge God's word, when really, you should be breaking a leg (figuratively speaking), to learn how HE uses our language, and to [i]receive[/i] His way of phrasing things and speaking..... because, it is in understanding His word to us through the light of the Holy Spirit, that we begin to glimpse the eternal with clear eyes.

Quote:
God doesn't believe anything

This is an unscriptural stance, which I have disputed in a previous post. Faith/belief, is the most natural attribute of God, compared with Man, and Jesus also had to have faith - a belief that His Father's word was reliable. This applied for the whole of His ministry, including His death and resurrection.

Jesus didn't 'know' anything, when He was dead.


Quote:
Jesus did not believ Lazarus would rise from death and come out of the tomb, HE knew he would.

Please read this story again, and tell me why then, Jesus PRAYED to His Father before He called Lazarus out?

Quote:
I said
He has given His word over centuries to the patriarchs and prophets, and has demonstrated His ability to make these words come to pass.... Is that not His faith?

Logic replied
And no, because that is our acknowleging the truth of HIS Word that is given to HIS patriarchs and prophets and acting apon it the trust that we have that it is true.

Have it your own way.

Personally, I think it takes faith on God's part to commit His word to fallen man (even under the influence of the Holy Spirit) and leave it hanging for centuries before fulfilment sometimes, and despite all that man did in the interim, still bring His word to pass in real time, eventually.

If you want to believe that DID NOT take faith on His part, okay.

Quote:
That is not faith.
Faith is defined as belief that is not based on physical proof.

In Romans 1 (below), Paul clearly says that faith in God comes from recognising His existence through what He has made (the universe), and that the partial rejection of this PHYSICAL proof of his existence, will attract God's wrath.

I think you'll find that your concept of faith is located in the anti-Christian world of the philosphies of men, which was most rampant in the 20th century. Perhaps if you look in a really old dictionary, you'll find a definition of faith which includes acknowledging 'Creation' as being a sign of God's presence.


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,


Quote:
reality becoumes blured......
You are makeing faith out to be something totaly diferent that what it is known to be.

On the contrary, [i]you[/i] are making faith far more complicated than it is. Faith is a rational response to God's revelation of Himself. In a way, this is what you are meaning by your use of the phrase 'common sense'. But, you are not making 'common' 'sense' when you continue to suggest faith can be based only in an [i][b]irrational[/i][b/] belief in things which cannot be seen or verified.

Again I would say 'on the contrary' - the revelation of God to my understanding is both physical and spiritual, and I have the witness in myself, that God's record of His Son is true. (1 John 5:10) And that is not by faith, except that I can't prove it to you.... but then, I don't need to. Through His own leading to your spiritual understanding, God can. I'm sure, too, that people prayed this from Paul, [i]for me[/i]. And I have prayed it for myself.

Ephesians 1
15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,

16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers:

17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened;

Quote:
[Faith] ...is like hope. Hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for?(

I believe that hope can help us [i]towards[/i] faith, in certain situations, but some hope is much more to do with an [i]exercise of faith[/i] - such as in the operation of the gifts of the Spirit - for instance, for a healing.

Quote:
How do you "receive" that which you hear?

First, you need an open mind and heart. What follows is one's [i]response[/i] to having received (perfect tense).

 2006/12/21 6:46





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