Ann Arbor, MI
I think you have mistaken me. The tone of my last response was in no way angry. You have not offended me, nor was I expressing anger at you. I promise this is true.
I have learned while posting here on SI that it is OK to be opposed. Frankly, I feel like that has been one of the things that has sharpened me the most. Please do not mistake dialogue for a lynch mob.
And granted, yes, we do misinterpret the Bible sometimes - but this is no liscence for us to ignore even the most flambouyant teachings of this day.
I know that the Holy Spririt is working inside of us, and I don't want to underestimated its ability to help us discern what is best or make sense of scripture. Some things, as Christians, we know. We can almost all say with confidence that we know the basics. Ministers who are off here should raise a flag in our mind - and this without any judgement of their personal walk with God.
Anyways, Anna, I appreciate your offer to pray for me. In fact, I need it more than you know. Please try not to impose tones on this posts when you read them. No maliciousness was intended on my part. Continue to be sharpened by this community! Its been an amazing blessing.
| 2006/10/27 10:53||Profile|
Having a go at Ray Comfort for going on her show was super-judgemental. In his heart, he clearly loves God, so how on earth can any of us decide he now has no integrity, cos he went on the show of someone we've arbitrarily decided is rubbish? Tis lunacy!
I will quite honestly tell you the reason for me being critical of his move to go on Joyce Meyer.
I love Ray, he has been such an awsome influence on my life, his Evidence Bible has been such a great inspiration, all the quotes, study notes from him. Having said that...in my previous posts, it has alarmed me that he was on TBN. NOW, I know what your thinking, "whats wrong with that" I will tell you, EVERYONE, (well with the exception of Way of the master, and Paul Washer) on that network teach the Heresey known as the Word of Faith, All the way down to the owners Jan and Paul Crouch. Being on this network automatically sets of alarms in my discernment part of my spirit.
I am not being judgemental, only concerned. Remember that a little leaven, leavens the whole lump...and this is NOT taken out of context, and I am afraid Ray and Kirk are heading in that same direction, and you bet I will be praying for them.
Read some of Krispy's last SCRIPTURE (and i'm not yelling, just trying to get everyone to see the word scripture) he referenced concerning false teaching, we should know better than to go on their show. people who now watch, who were concerned about Joyce's teaching, are now comforted in the fact that they know a solid man like Ray is on the program, which is obviously false. HER TEACHING IS DESTRUCTIVE, NON BIBLICAL.
If you tell me not to judge her, please give me scripture references where someone says not to expose false doctrines of devils, and PLEASE don't take it out of context.
All through the bible I read references about exposing false prophets, teachers, from the Old testament to the New Testament.
I am sorry if I offend you, but I am doing what I am bibically commanded to do, please don't respond with any comments unless you can use scripture to back it up. If you do, I will most certainly repent from what Paul Crouch will call "Heresey Hunting".
| 2006/10/27 11:18||Profile|
Los Angeles, California
| 2006/10/27 11:20||Profile|
Munchkin, If I may I think you need some adjusting in your understanding on a few things. Or maybe you just need to explain yourself a little better. Here are some obsevations/thoughts;
Faith is an absolutely individual thing - intensely personal
while in one sense it's true that only we can exercise faith unto salvation We must also "ALL" bend our knee to "the faith" which was once for all delivered to the saints. By "the faith" I mean the body of teachings from Jesus Christ and the Apostles. We all including JM need to conform our lives words and teachings to what they taught.
Next you speak of not judging, yet you are now judging many on this thread. You see, judging is unavoidable. We just need to judge righteous judgment.
You also say we are no better than her. Basically saying no one christian is any better than any other christian and therefore we can't judge. This is not scriptural. Some of us are more "sanctified" than others. D.J. Kennedy said what I just said in a teaching on his program. That there are some christians more holy than others. Not talking about "justification" but sanctification.
Lastly Paul says to test all things and hold fast to that which is good.
I have to go for now. God bless and please be open minded. God bless, John
| 2006/10/27 11:34|
Esther saved her people (or rather God did thru her) as a part of the government. Deborah was a judge in a governmental position. Neither of these women were "ministers" in the temple. Yes, the Lord used many women thru-out scripture, but not as leaders of a congregation. Paul does refer to several women who were key in the ministry... but they were not ever referred to as leaders of a congregation. Paul refers to one woman in whom's house there met a church... but it is an assumption to think she led the church. I believe she merely hosted it. There is no indication that she was the pastor. This is where [i]you[/i] are getting things out of context.
Thats like saying women can be ministers because Hillary Clinton is a Senator, or Queen Elizabeth is a Queen. Thats apples to oranges. We're not to be of the world. There is a different authority in the Church.
This is not to be viewed as a sexist position, but rather a scriptural position, and Paul gives an explanation for why he said what he said concerning women and authority in the church. In fact, he refers all the way back to the garden of Eden. So it can not be said that he was addressing one particular situation in one congregation... because his explanation covers all. That wouldn't make any sense. No, he applies it to all.
I have never said women can not hold key positions in ministry. But I am saying that women can not lead a congregation in the role of Pastor or Elder (which scripturally are the same thing), and they can not teach men in a congregational setting. The congregation (or ekklesia) would apply to a small Bible study, a church service of 100 people... or a stadium of 50,000 as Joyce Meyers does.
And if you don't think Joyce Meyers is in a place of authority when she is teaching in a stadium... try going up on stage and see what happens.
To answer IRONMAN... I am not afraid to confront any false teacher. I've done so in several situations, and even in our own house church network where as an Elder it's my responsibility. If I was afraid of people blasting me publicly do you think I would say 90% of the things I do on this forum?? LOL...
| 2006/10/27 11:39|
| Patrick E|
good stuff, pray God that comp puts a button on this thread....oh man, thats a good comp.
Bro....just a suggestion...check it out, write Joyce a letter, telling her with both words and pictures the ministry you and the Lord and the other brothers and sisters got going up in inner city Mo-town, and then ask her to prayerfully consider sending the Mo-Town ministry $10,000...no, make it $20,000 to help do the Lord's work in feeding the poor in inner city Detroit both bread made by human hands and the bread of Life.....
do it, and lets she what she does or says in return. Either they ignore you, or you get rejected, OR what if she sends a check?
You might say, that monies tainted, but check it out, even the idolatous king of Persia sent the boys back with money to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem...know what I'm saying?....then with the 20k, you could buy a building in the inner city for the ministry, this winter is gonna tough, always is...I don't know....just throwing it out there, only the Lord knows.
your brother, neil
| 2006/10/27 11:41|
| Re: Ray Comfort on Joyce Meyer|
I have read this thread with interest. To get a feel of what the uproar is about, I logged onto the site and listened to the interview Joyce Meyer had with Ray Comfort.
From the interview itself, I found no fault with it, understanding time restraints that is upon everyone - not everything can be said one wants to in the time allocated. Even in face if that, it seems to me both JM and RC did a very good job.
My concern for this entire episode is very different from any who posted on this thread. It is not the fact that she is a woman, not that she belongs to a different church then I do. It is the fact that she is a divorced and remarried person living in adultery: Rom 7:3:So then if,while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." Mark 10:22 echoes these same sentiments. No amount of 'good works' will ever annul the clear teaching of God's word.
As for Ray Comfort speaking on her show, I am reminded of what Jesus frequently did: he ate with sinners and the Pharisees in their homes. The Pharisees were highly critical of him eating with sinners and the Pharisees were his greatest critics and Jesus had some sharp words for them. BUT there is a diference: when Jesus visited the Pharisees he did not mince words when the occasion called for it. Moderns are too inclined to be filled with the "How to Win Friends and Influence People" philosophy then be be upfront with the gospel according to Jesus Christ and His Spirit. We would rather please our host and not offend him/her. We are too polite. Yet to be rude for its own sake is counter-productive. One must not be afraid to speak the truth as the Scriptures say it, even if it would offend our hosts! Jesus did not let the fear of man distract him. Whether RC soft pedeled his message, I have no idea. But what was given in the time frame alloted was Biblical, IMHO. They even promoted his school, literature and ministry!
In discerning, one must realize we are handling the Holy Word of God and that should instill within us a sense of Holy terror lest we mishandle it and fall under its judgement.
This is my take on this issue and I do appreciate all who have voiced their concerns.
(I do hope this post will not deteriorate into a divorce/remarriage debate.)
| 2006/10/27 13:10||Profile|
Ginny... well balanced post. I too had no problem with anything said between her and Comfort. Notice I havent critiqued the dialogue.
I purposely did not bring up her divorce and remarriage because I dont know all the facts. She claims her first husband abused her physically and sexually. There is a lot of opinions about how that should be handled, and if divorce is allowable in that situation. I didnt want to turn this into a discussion about her divorce.
However, scripture does say that an elder should be the "husband of one wife". Taking that literally (as I do) that eleminates her because she is not a husband. Secondly, she's had more than one spouse. Some contend that a divorce prior to salvation does not count... and I used to feel that way... but I dont any longer. I believe NO divorce in order to be qualified to be an elder/pastor. Some would see that as being too far to the right... but Paul followed that up with saying how can a man who can not control his own household also lead a congregation? A divorced individual has issues in their family due to the prior marriage, and there is no way around it. I believe Paul was commanding purity in the leadership.
Interesting to note that there are a ton of divorced and remarried "preachers" in the WOF and Charismatic Movement. Thats not to say that Baptists or Methodists etc dont have any... but they seem to be everywhere in WOF and Charismania.
Yes, Jesus hung around with sinners... to the point where people said He was a winebibber and a glutton... which He was neither. But whenever Jesus encountered false teachers or pharisaical people He rebuked them. Harshly.
Ray Comfort appearing on TBN, and on Joyce Meyers show without any warning of her heretical teachings is, in my opinion, putting an air of approval and legitimacy of her "ministry" and teachings.
What if Billy Graham went on Benny Hinn's show and "fellowshipped" with him? Most folks would see that as Billy Graham's acceptance of Benny Hinn as a legitimate minister of the gospel... which he certainly is NOT.
Paul told us to [b]MARK AND AVOID[/b] false teachers... not go on their shows and read their books. It's not a suggestion, it's a command.
We're are either going to obey scripture, or we're going to be in rebellion to it. There is [b]NO[/b] middle ground.
There are plenty of grey areas in the scripture pertaining to behavior and such that get discussed on here all the time... but this is [b]not[/b] one of them. Scripture is very clear on this subject. It's not something that should be open for debate.
| 2006/10/27 13:58|
Los Angeles, California
Paul told us to MARK AND AVOID false teachers... not go on their shows and read their books. It's not a suggestion, it's a command.
We're are either going to obey scripture, or we're going to be in rebellion to it. There is NO middle ground.
There are plenty of grey areas in the scripture pertaining to behavior and such that get discussed on here all the time... but this is not one of them. Scripture is very clear on this subject. It's not something that should be open for debate.
I agree - there is not really too much to debate about. The scriptures make it it pretty clear and cut and dry in this situation.
| 2006/10/27 14:07||Profile|
| 2006/10/27 14:08||Profile|