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GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re: LoveGrace

Quote:
God is soverign. Weither you father kills himself or you lose your job and all your savings and are on the street the next day or even if your daughter gets raped. GOD IS STILL ABSOLUTELY SOVERIGN. That's the only point I was really trying to make.

Amen. It's that simple.

Quote:
Umm. I truly don't understand Calvinsim nor Arminism.

I never did either untill I came here to talk on this forum online! I didn't even know the difference. I just read my bible and believed what it said. But as I started talking on here I found that people had strange objections to SIMPLE things. Thats how this all got started.

Here's a website comparing the five points of calvinism and arminianism. [url=http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html]WEBSITE CLICK HERE.[/url] Its good to know where you stand because if you don't you'll be swooped into lots of tangles! John MacAtrhur has a good audio series to download free on the subject [url=http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp?bcd=10/3/2006]here.[/url]

But most importiant in your Christian walk is HOLINESS. What does God want you to do? Live a holy life, preach the gospel, and seek His face... among 15,000+ other things. Just read the bible without any bias in truth. What does it say... what does it mean... how does it apply to me?


_________________
Kristy

 2006/10/20 10:48Profile









 rometown

Quote:
The question is do we?



yes and amen.

to me Psalm 51 is the heart of the penitent, and the height of the 7 penitential Psalms...thats all I was saying.

bartle

 2006/10/20 13:30
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jaysaved

Quote:
My will is my will and it is free from any and all external influences. No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God.



what about Jonah?


[b]1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah 1 the son of Amittai, saying, 2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.[/b]

there was no option for Jonah here, he was told to go to nineveh. he went the opposite way but:

[b]4 But the LORD sent out 2 a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken. 5 Then the mariners were afraid, and cried every man unto his god, and cast forth the wares that were in the ship into the sea, to lighten it of them. But Jonah was gone down into the sides of the ship; and he lay, and was fast asleep.[/b]

and then

[b]5 So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased 5 from her raging. 16 Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered 6 a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows. 17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.[/b]

during which:

[b]1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.[/b]

and then:

[b]10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.[/b]
JOnah then


[b]1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD.[/b]

i'm not sure about you but that seems like an outside influence to me. Jonah was told to go, not asked. he decided he would go the opposite way but God had him put in the belly of a fish and vomited on the shores close to nineveh and he did comply. i don't think jonah would have decided to go to nineveh on his own accord, in fact i know he wouldn't have because God intervened so dramatically. our will is unfluenced alright...at least that's how i see it.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/10/21 12:28Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: free will and divine sovereignty

Quote:
i'm not sure about you but that seems like an outside influence to me. Jonah was told to go, not asked. he decided he would go the opposite way but God had him put in the belly of a fish and vomited on the shores close to nineveh and he did comply. i don't think jonah would have decided to go to nineveh on his own accord, in fact i know he wouldn't have because God intervened so dramatically. our will is unfluenced alright...at least that's how i see it.



Here is a perfect illustration to differentiate between God’s role and man’s role in the work of divine redemption.

God could have easily spared the fish episode by literally carrying Jonah to Ninevah, implanting him with a tape recording, and then pressing ‘play’. But, no, God sovereignly worked in Jonah’s life so that he went on his own accord, though not with the best of motives. Yes, God told him to go, and yes, God ordained circumstances to AFFECT Jonah’s choice, but no, God did not literally make Jonah do it.


I feel that we do a great evil by implying that we are passive objects of God. So we just sit around and wait for something to happen to us, when really we are called to take responsibility for making choices.

Next time someone says to you. ‘So-and-so made me do such-and-such!”, you can ask “Really? How?” Likely he wasn’t handcuffed and dragged. Likely he believes in a false “doctrine” about his will. He has (unconsciously) given someone else power over his will, and then blames that “power” for controlling him. Really he himself made the choice. Pointing this out may very well be liberating for him.

No one enters the kingdom kicking and screaming. Nowhere in the Bible does God turn away anyone who wants in (until the final day, when the opportunity to choose is past).

Diane


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Diane

 2006/10/21 13:15Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
My will is my will and it is free from any and all external influences. No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God.



I respect the striving for philosophic consistency in holding men responsible for their freewill and attributing to them absolute free will. Yet I think Ironman touched on the obvious problem that pops up when we intellectually decide to affirm absolute free will in man. (Ever notice the irony that we weaken many ideas when we stick the word "absolute" on them?)

Only God almighty, dependent on no cause, can absolutely say My will is my will and it is free from any and all external influences. No one outside of myself forces me to do anything....

The rest of us are born into influence so murky and thick we can barely see beyond our own sphere of existence. Now I believe man has a will of his own, but it is contextual at best. This is simply how nature works. Both a fish and a bird can come and go seemingly indifferent to gravity...but it's gravity that ultimately holds together their respective envirnoments and enables them to move about. We call human will "free" but I think this ultimately is a misnomer. It is individual but it's limits are contraining...we could call man's will 'limited' or restrained.

Somewhere in the spiritual layers of existence, man's lesser will touches God's greater will...where and how these two wills interact I can not say. God may not always 'force' man to do anything...although I think it's hasty to say he does not. Even the heart of a king is steered by God, the bible says.

Yet, God holds man responsible for his works. We are not robots...not even malfunctioning robots. Broken robots need repair, not repentence like spiritual human beings.

This is why I think Arminians and Calvinists...if we can polarize each other so neatly...really need each other. The two inform each other...and also confuse each other just enough to keep us from thinking God is also a robot that we can reverse engineer with theological schematics. The gospel message was given by God to be rationally understood and expressed my mere men...but this does not mean that all of God's mysteries can be pinned down with human rational.


MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/10/21 13:29Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Revelation 19:6
"And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, “Alleluia! For the Lord God OMNIPOTENT reigns!" emphasis added


_________________
Kristy

 2006/10/21 13:39Profile









 Re: A Question to Calvinists

bro IRONMAN said

Quote:
you said you'e never hated God but i think we all have at some point because we were all once His enemies hence our conduct prior to salvation

I agree God would be entitled to put this complexion on some of my actions, but, I have met many people who DO hate God, and can find no way to adjust their stance towards Him. In this sense, I genuinely have never hated God from inside my own head.

If I had, I would say so, and also (bro :-) ) I think I'm the only person who would have a right to make that claim for myself.... if you don't mind. ;-)

 2006/10/21 14:32
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Dorcas

Quote:
I agree God would be entitled to put this complexion on some of my actions, but, I have met many people who DO hate God, and can find no way to adjust their stance towards Him. In this sense, I genuinely have never hated God from inside my own head.



i suppose that is how i view it because i feel because we were His enemies and we conducted ourselves in a rebellious manner to Him it showed rebellion to Him which i feel is hate. i don't think that our actions of rebellion against God are any less offensive to Him than those of the people you mentioned above since both can be redeemed. i think to view it that way brings to light a gravity of sin which we may not otherwise think of. think about it, when we sin we have been influenced by the enemy who does hate God and so the things he places before us which we then do can be nothing else but hateful toward God...or maybe that's something we ought to perhaps consider seriously?

Quote:
If I had, I would say so, and also (bro ) I think I'm the only person who would have a right to make that claim for myself.... if you don't mind.



i'm sorry sis D, i should have said i think we have hated God to some degree or other. it was not meant as an accusation but my own opinion and i put it forth as a thing for consideration.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/10/21 20:39Profile
mamalluk
Member



Joined: 2006/10/21
Posts: 18


 Re:

Quote:
i don't think that our actions of rebellion against God are any less offensive to Him than those of the people you mentioned above since both can be redeemed. i think to view it that way brings to light a gravity of sin which we may not otherwise think of. think about it, when we sin we have been influenced by the enemy who does hate God and so the things he places before us which we then do can be nothing



very true, Ironman, in fact, for we Blood-bought people, when we sin, we probably are more offensive to God than the worldlings.. too many Christians I met seem to have a sort of sin catogorization in their mind, you know, the minor sins vs. major sins, the children's sins vs. adult's sins..that sort of thing





 2006/10/21 21:05Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 No longer ...

Oh, why not ...

Quote:
One of the major misconceptions about Calvinists is that we are all fatalists. This is just not the case.


You are not a Calvinist brother, you [i]are[/i] a brother, a saint, a child of God, a fellow heir, a "Christian" (To use the word attributed by others upon us), a disciple, a friend (John 15:15). Probably a few more descriptions but these other titles of constructs, have much more in line with ...

1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

... and the surrounding context than we might want to let on to. You might agree with him on some matters and points but there are no Calvinists nor Armenians for that matter in scripture. That is ridiculously overstated on purpose and that purpose is to but pray we could deconstruct so many of these divisive cliques from the Body. This segregating into camps is unnecessary as it is grievous. It unwittingly forces one into a boxed in mindset of 'agreement' to a set of constructs at the onset with little to no margin for error or other considerations.

That is not not to say there isn't anything of worth to consider from them, from the points described, the focus being looked at, the perspective, but in and of themselves cannot be all inclusive or what generally is left lingering is the sense of being [i]exclusive[/i], set apart from everyone else ...

Quote:
My will is my will and it is free from any and all external influences. No one outside of myself forces me to do anything...including God.



Stop yourself from dying.
Breathe on your own.
Reverse your birth.
Forgo sleep for a year.
... and food, water.

You are not as free as you might think brother.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/10/22 12:27Profile





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