new birth is something apart from initial salvation.
Do you mind if we go over this again? So, in regards to the distinction made here, what do you believe takes place at the initial salvation and what takes place at the new birth? (Setting aside the death bed situation, if that is a correct thing to do).
This is how I understand it from the scriptures.
Jesus died on the cross for the salvation of all mankind. His perfect sinless Blood was shed for that reason. However, His 3 1/2 yrs on this earth wasn't for that reason but for explaining the Father's intention for mankind, to those who would receive His message. Shedding His Blood was incidental to man being able to fulfill the intention, upon receiving His message. In other words, if I can receive in my hearing but not appropiate it in my heart, what good is it? His shed Blood set me free from that bondage and now I am able to take His yoke upon me and learn of Him.
Jesus told His Disciples to make disciples. He never told them to go get people saved. The inferrance is that they already were. cf. Romans 5.1-12. Therefore, the "work" of salvation being satisfied, the explanation of it is what evangelism is to be about, i.e., the "way" of salvation. This is where the choice of the individual comes into play. Paul, on Mars hill, is my illustration for this.
Many heard Paul and couldn't have cared less while others rejoiced that their hope had been realized. The former damned themselves because of their rejection of the Word of Life, preferring to be their own little god[s]. The latter hopefully became disciples, following Paul as he followed Christ. All heard and understood what issues were. Those who didn't, asked Paul to hang around and speak more on this matter, that it made clear to them.
We know that to be a disciple of Christ, one must be born again; receive the heart of the Life of the Lord Jesus, and this by the Holy Spirit, when Christ is truly sought. cf Jer.29.13. As a consequence for truly seeking Him and His love coming into me, what follows should be a love affair with the Savior as a testimony of my allegiance that brings one into the Lord Jesus Christ, the "Doorway"; into the Kingdom and unto the Father, that we are able to "see" Him that we become the "expression of Himself, in the world.
This is such a powerful thing to happen, something for which our soulish disposition will war with, violence will the ongoing experience most of us will have when striving to enter into His Kingdom. Satan we are told to resist, but it is our "self" to be the obstacle we must overcome. This is where working out our salvation is made real to us.
This is called "abiding".
Hope that helps,
| 2006/9/11 7:57|
by Christinyou on 2006/9/11 4:15:43
Clarify please what initial salvation is and birthing.
This distinction came from a previous posting of Ormly, but it is yet to be clarified.
In order to shed some light on my own experience I began to question it. I came across a handbook in my own possession, on salvation, by Harold M Freligh with a forward by A W Tozer, called "Newborn".
The different stages are set out and I will attempt to put it simply (though the whole thing is quite a lovely explanation of salvation and was written for teaching on the subject, in order to clarify the different stages of salvation).
He calls the born again experience that and also regeneration.
The definition of regeneration: "is that supernatural and instantaneous change wrought by the Holy Spirit in the nature of the individual who receives the Lord Jesus Christ".
All the stages of salvation are set out. Here I mention only what he wrote on regeneration. After conversion comes regeneration. Conversion being a spiritual change involving one mentally and morally, affecting the will. A heart conviction that changes one's whole outlook and course of action.
There are human and divine sides in regeneration of the individual. It is a divine act. A hindrance to regeneration is pride, man must come as a little child. Regeneration comes through believing God's written word, resting on it and Jesus himself. This must come from the heart.
Regeneration comes through receiving Jesus Christ, which involves the will. An act of faith.
On the divine side of regeneration it is of God that one is born again (john 1:13). Birth by the Spirit (John 3:6). It is the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Tit 3:5).
Christ enters the opened door of the heart and makes His abode there.
God uses His Word in the work of regeneration He begat us with the word of truth (James 1:18).
Also regeneration is a mystery. "The wind bloweth where it listeth....". It is difficult to explain the operation, but we can experience it.
Evidence of regeneration:
The believer escapes corruption that is in the world, because of new nature within; overcomes the world (1 John 5:4); is delivered from sin (as a practice, not a single act). A regenerated being loves God, the centre of interest goes from self to God (Rom 5:5). Love of the bretheren follows (1 John 4:20)and he keeps His commanments.
He states that the means of transformation is by keeping our eyes upon Christ Jesus. Regeneration is divine.
Personally I find this quite helpful in explaining my own journey, I hope it does the same for others.
I delighted we have agreement. :-D
| 2006/9/11 8:14|
West Sussex, England
I delighted we have agreement.
I delighted light has been shed. :-)
| 2006/9/11 14:05||Profile|
| Re: Well...|
| 2006/9/13 19:38||Profile|
| Re: Well...|
I think this is all simple... Either be perfectly sinless all your life and be as righteous as God....
Or fall at God's only solution and
Repent, believe, have faith in God, trust Christ's sacrifice, be "Born Again" (or regenerated), follow Christ, obey God, love God, know God, seek God, fear God all the days of your life. Do all these things with all your heart, mind, soul and strength (Provided by God). Salvation is by Grace, through faith, in Christ Alone. Be converted!
Or in plainer words...
Have God save you.
| 2006/9/13 19:43||Profile|