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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Then there is really no cause to worry as the enemies stronghold is not going to be his forever.

Thanks, I'm not worried. So your thinking would be that Hades was Satan's stronghold but will one day be his prison? This is an interesting line of thought in that Ezek 28 speaks of Satan having defiled his sanctuaries, which thinking along your lines would mean that he fouled the place that God gave him authority in.

This still leaves two difficulties. What is the nature of the current conflict, alluded to in Matt 16, between the Church and Hades? And if Satan was in authority over Hades where does that place all the OT saints before the Resurrection? in Satan's control? and David's baby son? I don't get the impression that to leave this life put the OT saints into Satan's domain.

Thank you all the same, its more grist to the mill.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/3 2:55Profile
nobody
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Joined: 2003/9/16
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 Re:

I have heard that the "Gates of Hades" was a well-known expression in that day as a euphemism for death. This would make the meaning of the verse that Jesus will build His church and He will not be stopped even by the killing off of His followers. This is a comfort to those who stay up late at night worrying whether there will even be a church in the future after seeing divisions, compromise, and apostasy. It reminds us that:

Romans 9
16So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Whether "Gates of Hades" was a common expression for death in that time and place I can't verify firsthand, but it would be interesting to research it some.

 2004/2/3 9:17Profile
three9
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Joined: 2004/1/25
Posts: 21
Valley of Decision

 Re:

Quote:
And if Satan was in authority over Hades where does that place all the OT saints before the Resurrection? in Satan's control? and David's baby son? I don't get the impression that to leave this life put the OT saints into Satan's domain.



Jesus gave the parable of a rich man and a servant. (story of Lazerus, i know, mispelled) the master and servant died, and while the master was in hell, he saw his servant and was close enough to ask him for a drink. His servant being in paradise, and the master in hell.

Now, if one is to read Revelation, he can see that warfare began between God and Satan during Christ's birth. That is why there weren't so many demons running around the earth before Christ. Paradise and hell were literally right next to each other. When Jesus died, he took paradise and all the people in it and put it in heaven.

That is why hell expanded to twice it's size after Christ died.

 2004/2/3 10:35Profile
three9
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Joined: 2004/1/25
Posts: 21
Valley of Decision

 Re:

Quote:
warfare began between God and Satan during Christ's birth.



funny thing is, the war has already been won.

 2004/2/3 10:36Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Genesis 3:15 begins the relationship between the seed of Satan and the Seed of Christ. Hatred for one another was established on earth in that moment of time. The seed of Satan began to hate the Seed of Christ.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/3 11:17Profile
three9
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Joined: 2004/1/25
Posts: 21
Valley of Decision

 Re:

Quote:
Hatred for one another was established on earth in that moment of time.



yes, that is true. and once Christ was born on earth, warefare broke out.

 2004/2/3 12:45Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

nobody
the gates of hades ia a biblical expression for death, as sheol in Hebrew often means the grave. [Is 38:10] Hades is the Greek equivalent for sheol. and I have been working along these lines.

I have wanted to see the Church as the agressor her, carrying her fight to the enemy. But I think that blinkered me to look in the other direction. If we now put the concept of death in the place of 'gates of hades' and make 'death' the agressor we get something like this.

I will build my Church and 'death' will not suppress it.

We know that the Lord immediately went on to speak of His own death after this event. I can understand the verse in these terms. Thanks everyone for allowing me to bounce these ideas around.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/3 13:19Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Quote:
yes, that is true, and once Christ was born on earth, warefare broke out.



"Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to [b]oppose[/b] him. And the Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" Zech. 3:1

"Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude verse 9

Who is the Lord?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/3 13:26Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

So let me see if I can express it more clearly...

Like most folk who have commented my instinct was to see the Church as the agressor and then the job was to try to find out what it was attacking. I think this hid the answer for me. Let me state 3 facts and then put them together to make a suggestion.

1. The word prevail is katischuO. The prefix kata can often mean downwards, pinO is to drink, katapinO is to swallow (drink down). And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Comprehended is katalambanO which means to 'hold down'. katischuO means strength-downwards or suppress, or overpower.

2. The phrase 'gates of hades' is a recognised OT death idiom for the grave or death. I said, In the noontide of my days I shall go into the gates of Sheol: I am deprived of the residue of my years. Is 38:10 ASV. So this need not be a fortress but can be just a Hebrew idiom for death.

3. This is the viewpoint that changes things around. Let's make the 'gates of hades' or death the enemy, and lets make 'death' the aggressor.

We now have a statement which could be paraphrased as "I will build my church and death will not suppress it." This works because we know that death is an enemy; the last one that shall be destroyed. But death cannot suppress the Church. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.

The Church militant, as aggressor now comes into clearer focus in the next verse. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Certainly the church is on the attack, but I think we need to draw that particular truth from verse 19 rather than v18.

v18 now speaks of its divine origin and irrepressible vitality
v19 speaks of its progressive impact upon the earth

Well, what do you think? As they say, will it run?

After working through all this I came on J B Philips Paraphrase; on this rock that I am going to found my Church, and the powers of death will never have the power to destroy it. I think that paraphrase captures my current understanding of the verse.

Thanks for letting me bounce this around.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/2/3 14:00Profile





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