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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Speaking in Tongues

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Ron wrote:

"The OT gave supernatural gifts; the NT gives supernatural life." I sort of paraphased your thought.

Chapter 11 of Hebrews gives us an example of OT saints who lived by faith. We see the evidence of the supernatural gifts God gave them. This chapter is given to set for us an example of how faith should change our lives in the NT era.

Within the context of this thread we are talking about the power of the Holy Spirit and His effect in the life of the believer. You distinguish between the supernatural gifts of the OT and the supernatural life of the NT promises. Again according to this thread, I have heard, where are the mature Christians? Where is the power of this supernatural life promise found within the New Covenant? I have asked this same question in the area I live in. There are few who are following hard after God. So I have come to understand that faith comes by hearing God's voice. But today, few hear His voice. We have become dull of hearing. We all seek our own ways. His way through the cross is not preached. His way for the most part has been rejected by skillful manipulation of the word of God. Where is the power that was poured out on the day of Pentecost?

I know that the Spirit is working in India and China.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/13 12:26Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

I am very sorry to have missed out on this discussion until now. I have tried to catch up by skimming through it. This topic troubles and interests me greatly.

I am surprised that no one has brought up a few specific issues, though. One being that there is reason to believe that the gift of tongues was a gift of human languages that had a pagan counterpart of ecstatic speech. It is well-known that ecstatic babbling has been a part of false religion since Babylon. It has always been a part of mystical trances where people feel close to God and actually has a lot in common with the modern Charismatics. There is a case to be made that Paul was distinguishing between these in I Cor by using the singular and plural at different points. There are different types of human language (plural), but only one non-language of babbling (singular). It seems that the KJV translators caught on to this distinction and many theologians have as well. This is mentioned by Dr. John MacArthur in his book Charismatic Chaos as well as in his study Bible notes.

Another point that no one has brought forth is the explanation that Paul gave of the purpose of tongues.

Tongues a Sign to Unbelievers
20 Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature.
21In the law it is written:
"With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.
22Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

Not much I can add to that except it seems to argue against both a need for tongues today and argue against the idea that it is for a "private prayer language."

Tozer has a good sermon on this site about the perpetuation of Pentecost. We need to live powerfully in the Spirit without expecting everyday to be like the one on which He arrived. I love my wife but I don't expect the emotional peak of my wedding to be matched everyday of our marriage.

If I preach the law and wrath of God to people some will repent and others won't. There is scriptural evidence to suggest that if I had the Spirit raising the dead through my hand that my witness wouldn't have any more effect. Plus I'd be heaping more judgement on the unbelievers. Charismatics need to give up the notion that we are to be characterized by continual supernatural phenomena to be the true Bride. The lie that supernatural signs are better is refuted in the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

 2004/1/13 14:35Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Does Dr. John MacArthur teach that the gifts of the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost still do or do not apply today?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/13 15:25Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff
I have listened to a couple of audio files in sermonindex here and didn't pick up any cessationist vibes.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/1/13 17:33Profile
almondBranch
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Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

Quote:
Does Dr. John MacArthur teach that the gifts of the Holy Spirit given at Pentecost still do or do not apply today?



Its my understanding that MacArthur is adamantly cessationist.


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Stuart

 2004/1/13 19:37Profile
nobody
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

MacArthur is a cessationist. He believes that God still providentially heals of His own will, but not through "healers." He believes that biblical tongues were human languages as recorded in Acts and therefore it is a statement of historical fact that they have ceased, which fits with the purpose given for them as described in my earlier post. He believes that we recieve the Holy Spirit at the time of conversion and should be continuously filled with the Spirit. He believes that God's special revelation is the Bible and that the canon of Scripture is closed and not in need of anything more. To embrace extrabiblical revelation (using "thus saith the Lord" for anything other than a direct quote from Scripture) is to jump out of the boat of orthodox Christianity and right into the laps of the Catholics and Mormons. He also believes that the current Pentecostal movement needs to get very serious about examining their practices biblically. His main call in Charismatic Chaos is not to get people to hate Pentecostals or anything ridiculous like that. He simply wants to show many of the Pentecostal beliefs and practices for what they are and send a message that even if you aren't a cessationist you had better at least get some discernment fast. He basically calls the people who believe in these gifts for today to at the minimum adhere to the biblical constraints and purposes for the gifts. It is so easy to tear down many of the ridiculous teachings that have been put out there by Branham, Hagin, Copeland, etc. These people are the fathers of the movement for many branches and all were clearly heretical in many ways! It is very hard to find a Pentecostal leader who hasn't made up bizarre doctrines and then told everybody who questions them that they're blaspheming the Holy Spirit. This stuff is crazy and people need to be taught the Bible well enough to be able to stand up to these leaders and challenge their teachings.

 2004/1/14 14:21Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

thanks nobody
that is very concise and helpful.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/1/14 15:50Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

I have found that many who label themselves as cessationists base their stance on 1 Corinthians 13:10. "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." The cessationist believes that the Scriptures, when completed by the writing of Revelation, marks the end of God's work through the gifts of the Spirit during the time of the apostles. I believe this interpretation is wrong. In addition, I am not aware of any other Scripture which teaches the cessationist position.

Secondly, I have also heard the cessationist arguement that, one cannot base their relationship with God on experiential evidence. I believe a cessationist's doctrine also bases his arguement on experiential evidence. His experience is that he has not experienced the Holy Spirit in the way Scripture gives testimony to.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/14 16:19Profile
nobody
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

"Those who label themselves as cessationists" apparently refers to all of orthodox Christianity for the last 1900 years. These misinterpreters of Scripture must include all the Reformers, the Puritans, and most of the theologians and bible scholars of today. Don't pretend for a moment that the Pentecostal isn't arguing with every great Christian thinker in church history. Don't pretend for a moment that the orthodox haven't stood up to the test of time against a hundred times more scrutiny by gifted men. The Pentecostal have almost never been scrutinized by their own followers due to fear of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or touching the Lord's anointed or whatever else they dream up to control people with. Against all of this the Pentecostal jumps up and says "Your doctrines disagree with my experiences." The funny thing about your statement involving the orthodox Christian following their experience is that all Christians who don't specifically seek the Pentecostal experience never have it. So you go and seek a mystical experience, then base a theology on it, and then tell me that my theology is wrong due to a lack of the experience that you've had? The orthodox Christian views are from the Scripture whether they have been experienced or even hated. Many Christians hate the doctrines of predestination and hell but still preach them because they are biblical and therefore true. I once got my best friend, an AG youth pastor, to admit that his theology was based on experience. After that there is nothing left to argue about. He has admittedly forsaken Scripture as tha authority and inserted mysticism. Following your experiences over truth will always lead to false religion. It will also lead to the Pentecostal church splitting that happens when two people have conflicting "thus saith the Lord"'s. There is one truth and it is not determined by whether you feel God or even see Him. How is the Antichrist going to decieve the people? By healing! You can't say something is from God because it happens when there is a deciever on the loose! If Benny Hinn and the Antichrist have the same sign then how do you discern?

Sola Scriptura was a principle of the Reformers and anyone who rejects it is in serious danger. Does the Scripture itself not make many claims to be completely sufficient? Does it not say over and over again to be on guard against anyone who has something new or different to say?

Let me finish for now by mentioning that all the important gifts remain. Teaching, charity, faith, etc. It is only the ones that no longer have a place that have ceased. The prophecy of tongues has been fulfilled and the church has been established.

 2004/1/14 19:50Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

I think that in your search for a scripture to back up cessationism you missed ICor 13:8. It establishes the fact that tongues will at some point permanently cease (pauo). Couple this together with the fact that tongues did in fact cease within the NT and I think my cessationism to be very biblical. Paul mentions tongues in ICor which was an early epistle. After that he writes at least 12 epistles often addressing the gifts and never brings it up. Peter, James, John, and Jude never mention tongues. There is no evidence of tongues in the period following the NT and by the time of Chrysostom and Augustine the gift was so far gone and obscure that they only knew of it what was in Acts and ICor. Funny that such a huge part of the Pentecostal experience is one of the smallest parts of the NT. Even when it is mentioned it is spoken of as an inferior gift that many misuse to puff up their egos and show off with.

 2004/1/15 0:11Profile





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