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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Speaking in Tongues

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

New equation: mercy+grace+faith= salvation

Many in Christ=1
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/9 16:01Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

New equation based on Ron's quote:

salvation purchased = blood of Christ= x
all world= all who ever lived= y
grace=a
faith=b
heirs of Christ= 7

{X(Y) + A} /B =7

in Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/9 18:27Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff
I have worked a lot through translators in many different countries. I accept responsibility for my own words but not for those of my translators. I remember a story of one hard-pressed translator who confessed "I didn't understand what he was saying, so I preached my own sermon"

I don't know whether your algebra is a good translation or not, so I will leave you to make your own statements and translate them as you will. :-P


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Ron Bailey

 2004/1/9 18:48Profile
almondBranch
Member



Joined: 2003/10/6
Posts: 91
Tralee, Ireland

 Re:

I have enjoyed the algebra, being a programmer I like logic :-). However, here is a little illustration of a different nature to sum up my understanding of the baptism of the Spirit.

Picture a fish swimming in the sea, you are the fish, the sea is lost humanity. One day you find yourself with a hook in your mouth and are subsequently yanked out of the sea and unto the shore.

The moment the hook is in your mouth is conversion, the yanking out is the baptism. You are brought out of one humanity and into another (to borrow a phrase from Sparks)

So in that sense I would see conversion and immersion (spiritual that is) as two seperate "events" but one leads logicaly to the other and in fact the latter is the goal of the former not an add on for some extra power.


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Stuart

 2004/1/9 18:48Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Sorry Ron,

When I wrote "based on Ron's statement," I was addressing your point of salvation purchased. I did not intend for it to explain what you meant. However, salvation that was purchased by Jesus was for all. This is what I endeavored to equate in my statement. This is my statement.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/9 23:17Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Back on the thread:

I really enjoyed the discussion topic. I have one comment pretaining to these three statements:

Taka wrote: John the Baptizer was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb (Luke 1:15), yet this Spirit filled man did no miracles and never spoke in tongues (John 10:41).

Todd wrote: I often hear this example (Ravenhill, etc.) and I wonder how relevant it is to the discussion. Because John the Baptist was a transitional figure (in between Old and New Testament times).

Husley wrote: One is John the Baptist and his being filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. John's filling must be understood from the position of the covenants in which he appears. He was the last of the O/T prophets and so was filled like they were...Jeremiah etc.

In my belief the teachings of dispensational theology are men's attempts to cut up the Scriptures. The definition or parameters by which this doctrine frames the work of God will cause one to stumble and the veil remains.

Second, throughout this thread, the gifts of the Holy Spirit have been discussed. As Taka observed in Scripture, John performed no signs. Yet as many have written, there are other gifts of the Holy Spirit besides tongues and miracles. "And God has appointed these in the church; first apostles, second [b]prophets[/b], third teachers,.." 1 Corinthians 12:28. Also, "to another the working of miracles, [b]to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits,[/b]" 1 Corinthians 12:10. Also, "Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, [b]but especially that you may prophesy."[/b] 1 Corinthians 14:1.

In Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I know that Jesus was the substance of John's hope, and we all know the evidence of the power of God in John's life. The evidence of the spiritual gifts of prophesy and discerning of spirits can not be denied. Dispensational theology limits ones understanding when one denies the work of the Holy Spirit in the saints prior to Christ's death on the cross. Yet as you can see the Holy Spirit chooses the gifts He gives to all saints. This has been discussed in great lengths in this thread.

The Old Testament reveals the mysteries of God. Once you see the law of faith in Christ weaved throughout the books of the law and the prophets, you will begin to see that God through Jesus has always enabled the saints to be faithful through the work of the Holy Spirit. One must remember this, the law given to Moses on Mount Sinai condemned all of Israel. It taught the Jews about their iniquities. It was only meant to lead them to Christ.

Where does Scripture say that the filling of the Old Testament saints differs from the New Testament saints?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/9 23:59Profile
jeremyhulsey
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Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

Hello rookie,

I'll try to answer a couple of your questions about John the Baptist and why we have painted such a portrait of him in our descriptions.

"Husley wrote: One is John the Baptist and his being filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. John's filling must be understood from the position of the covenants in which he appears. He was the last of the O/T prophets and so was filled like they were...Jeremiah etc. "

At various times through certain individuals in Israel's history God filled men with His Spirit. This was not a general outpouring, but more of a sporadic type. These men prophecied, wrote scripture, and even commanded armies, but mainly called the nation back to holiness. As far as being Spirit filled, the filling was identical to the New Testament. That is, they lived a Spirit filled life, and bore the fruit of the Spirit. The difference is that the Old Testament fillings could not claim the fullfillment of Joel's prophecy of the Spirit being poured out on all flesh. This was proclaimed as being fullfilled in Acts Ch.2 By Peter. Peter then went on to preach that the promise was for all who would believe. The promise of the New Covenant is that God would place in us a new heart and a new spirit, and fill us with His Spirit (read Ezek. ch.36).

You were wondering why John the Baptist is considered the Last O/T prophet. He is given that title because he is the main herald of Christ in his time. While others did prophecy in the temple, no one made a public profession of Christ's identity quite like John. He was the final man in a long line of men AND women who longed and searched for the coming of the messiah. His may have not been the only prophetic voice of his time, but it was the culmination of the hope of Israel made alive in the revelation of God's Lamb. Jesus even called him the Elijah to come. Certainly in that sense he was the last and final O/T prophet.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/1/10 0:54Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jeff
I think Hulsey and myself are very much on the same wavelength on this thread. I think I have commented on another thread that the phrase 'filled with the Spirit' is unique to Luke. (Paul's Ephesians phrase has a different form and purpose). Luke uses 'filled with the Spirit' in a generic sense, that is, it is an all purpose phrase which serves as an umbrella term for several different and distinguishable events and states.

Because Luke uses the term in this way when we read it we need to ask 'what does this mean in this context'. We do this all the time in Bible study eg.Peter once cries 'Save me' does that mean that from that time we was 'saved'? We would have to examine the context to know.

Jesus spoke of a new and different relationship with the Spirit that could not be experienced until He had gone to the Father and sent the Spirit. Jesus made this distinction by saying 'he dwelleth with you and shall be in you'. He said is was expedient that He went away because unless He went the Spirit (and this experience of Him would not be possible).

What we have here is a clear indication that as a result of the coming events; his death, resurrection, ascension a new era would be inaugurated. Now I know that Jeff doesn't like dispensationalism, so call it what you will, something different was on the way.

John's gospel speaks very clearly of the coming of the Spirit as an event that must be preceeded by Christ's glorification. [John 7:39] Whether you regard Christ's glorification as the Cross or the Resurrection or His ascession to the throne, doesn't matter at this point. The point that Hulsey is making is a simple and fundamental one. John Baptist died before Christ was glorified and hence before the 'Spirit was given'.

Christ Himself regarded John as the greatest 'born of woman' but continued that he who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than John. What can this mean other than to say, as the time it was spoken, John was not in the Kingdom of God? and that those who are in some sense are 'greater' than those were not in Kingdom of God.

John was a great man and we do not diminish his greatness by making the distinction that Christ came to inaugurate a New Covenant through the shedding of His own blood. He was a great man but he did not have Christ within, how could he Christ was there on the earth with him?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/1/10 9:23Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Husley wrote;

"As far as being Spirit filled, the filling was identical to the New Testament. That is, they lived a Spirit filled life, and bore the fruit of the Spirit. The difference is that the Old Testament fillings could not claim the fullfillment of Joel's prophecy of the Spirit being poured out on all flesh."

I agree with you in terms of what you say about the prophesy of Joel. The Spirit was poured out at Pentecost and at other times in the generations since then. Like the history of Israel, the last 2000 years has seen times of revival and then the falling away of the His church. Also Peter in Acts 2:17-21, while identifing Pentecost as a fulfillment of Joel's prophesy also identifies a future work of God. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord." Acts 2:20. Throughout the Scriptures there is a sense of minor and major fulfillments of prophesy.

As far as the gifts and evidence of the fruit of the Spirit within the Old Testament saints, I believe there are more than a few who have been filled and indwelled by the Spirit in the Old Testament. "Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were toutured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented of whom the world was not worthy, they wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth. All of these having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us." Hebrews 11:35:40

As one reads through the major and minor prophets, as one reads the Psalms, one will hear of the faithful who have the witness of the evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit.

The day of Pentecost does not exclude those who lived before or after.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/1/12 11:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Old Testament enablings of the Spirit were to equip men and women to do specific tasks. When the Spirit came they 'did'. The fundamental difference in the Spirit's coming at Pentecost is captured in the words of Jesus, The Spirit coming upon you, you shall be...

The OT was give supernatural gifts; the NT to give supernatural life.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/1/12 18:24Profile





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