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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas


I would just like to make it clear that my posts in this thread are in no way intended to tear down Ironman and Rahman. I do feel, however, that this thread and others like it can be great vehicles to instruct, to teach, and to warn by written example.

This whole prophesy thing hits close to home for me, as early on in my walk I had a friend who was misled by different dreams and fancies and personal visions he said he received from the Lord. It was alomost a weekly thing; a new vision, a new thing to discuss, dream to interpret. I told him over and over again to forget that stuff and just get rooted and grounded in the Word of God, but all he wanted to discuss were esoteric dreams and Jesus in the clouds specifically calling him out to prophesy doom over central Texas. It was always some sort of prognostication, something looming in the near future...and it got to be pretty frustrasting because he considered himself untouchable, unrebukable - something of a John the Revelator mach II.

We would invite him to Bible study, and he wouldn't come. If he did show up, he had nothing to contribute except the fantastical. Soon, he began referring to the Holy Spirit as simply "the Ghost." He became more and more aloof, separating himself from the local assemblies here. He started going to my church, but soon left because of the lack of "the 'Ghost' moving and prophecy and miracles.

My good friend, a Baptist youth minister, would try to reason with him from Paul's didactic epistles, but he wuld brush him off because he "wasn't Spirit-filled and didn't speak in tounges." Pretty soon he left me as well, believing I was lukewarm and compromised because I didn't accept his mantle of prophethood. He eventually hooked up with a British itinerant evangelist/revivalist and would follow this guy around Texas with a video camera.

This was all about 5 years ago. About 6 months ago, I happened to run into that Baptist youth minister in a Mexican restuarant and I asked him whatever happened to our prophet/vision/signs-and-wonders/revival friend - and then he told me the sad news. He told me the guy was totally gone, back to the world, in the clubs, drinking, dancing, going home with women. Everyone knew about it - the same people he would preach to and tell them they "needed to get filled and speak in tongues" and prophesy over their future.

I believe something happened between the time he left my church and followed that revivalist to when I met my friend in the restaurant. An exposure happened, a tremendous unmasking where not only the foundations were shaken, but one that proved whatever was not rooted in the Word and looking to Jesus came falling out. And whatever it was that fell out was enough to flip the canoe over.

Let's all pray Rahman's and Ironman's canoes stay afloat when they get to the bottom of the falls. They are our brothers, and we know they love the Lord. Love indeed conquers all. God knows how to keep His beloved above water.

Brother Paul

Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/4 21:26Profile

Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


Years of Crisis Ahead
by J. R. Nyquist
Weekly Column Published: 01.04.2008
On December 23 the Telegraph (UK) published an article by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard with the headline, “Crisis may make 1929 look like a ‘walk in the park.’ The article begins, “Twenty billion dollars here, $20 billion there…. Buckets of liquidity are being splashed over the North Atlantic banking system, so far with meager or fleeting effects.” Large banks are in trouble. Huge sums of money are disappearing. The capitalist system is faltering. At the same time, the “former” center of global communism is brimming with new confidence. Russia is deploying warships to the Eastern Mediterranean, building and testing new intercontinental missiles and submarines. The rhetoric of Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, has a “neo-Soviet” ring to it. When visiting Cuba a few years back, a journalist asked Putin about his ideological loyalties. Was he a communist? “Call me a pot,” he said cryptically, “but heat me not.” Like Stalin after the New Economic Policy of the 1920s, Putin has nationalized major Russian industries. He has curtailed press freedom. He has reversed the process that dismantled the Soviet Union. He is taking up the pieces of the old communist empire, and putting them back into place.

Vladimir Putin knows that defeat may be a temporary expedient. A broken nation can bounce back. The tables can be turned on old enemies who believe they’ve won. He knows, as well, that history is cyclical; that peace leads to war and boom leads to bust. While Western businessmen and politicians have implicitly denied (in their rhetoric) the inevitability of war and financial catastrophe, there is a longstanding political movement firmly based on the expectation of both. I am referring to the political movement founded by Karl Marx and continued by Lenin, which has existed in many countries under various names and guises. Marx taught his followers to expect a future financial crash. This crash, said Marx, would discredit capitalism and open the door to global revolution. After Marx came Lenin, who taught that a future “imperialist war” would contribute to the destabilization of capitalism, discredit the leadership of the developed countries, and enable a worldwide workers’ revolution. The shrewdness of Marx and Lenin may be found in their prediction of what was always inevitable, making themselves appear more authoritative than other would-be revolutionaries.

Marx and Lenin have followers throughout the world. And these followers are organized. They also have Islamic imitators. The specifics of doctrine are unimportant when studying totalitarian countries. What matters is the ever-present hatred of Western civilization, mass-murder, oppression, and an obsession with destructive war. These are the common elements. These are the tags that give away the game and tell the observer what he is looking at. The Islamist and the Communist seek to undermine the West economically, socially, demographically and politically. The military balance also plays into their calculations. This is why the acquisition of nuclear weapons by communist and Islamist countries is a top priority. The policies of Hugo Chavez, Vladimir Putin, the Chinese communists and the clerical regime in Iran are all coordinated at the highest levels. Economic warfare is also a consideration, especially when it comes to oil and currency manipulation.

It is in this context we should consider the statements of leading economists and financial experts today. We are told that financial dominoes are tilting. If the fear of widespread bankruptcy cannot be contained, if banks and hedge funds are about to collapse, if lenders are hoarding cash and borrowers suffering the pangs of unsatisfied addiction, if the money screw has become a thumbscrew and the tortured victim is forced to yell out his bankruptcy, then the Marxist party is about to see the fulfillment of the old prophecies and promises. The expected revolution is about to come. It will come on the heels of capitalism’s crisis.

In the Telegraph article Evans-Pritchard quotes Professor Peter Spencer as saying, “The central banks are rapidly losing control.” He also quotes British and American experts who agree that “the crisis” has moved beyond collapsing mortgage securities and now threatens the entire financial system. On Dec. 12 the Wall Street Journal ran a piece titled, “Banks Sound Grim Notes.” According to this article, some of the “biggest U.S. commercial banks” have been issuing warnings that “underlying business fundamentals are continuing to deteriorate.” Many banks are predicting that 2008 will be a year of “mounting loan defaults” and heavy losses on all sides. Last month, Merrill Lynch advised investors to stay away from Bank of America and J.P. Morgan.

The great economists taught us what to expect from irresponsible credit expansion. But when the generation that experienced the Great Depression had passed from power, the rising generation did not believe a Great Depression could happen to them. Turning their back on history, they imagined themselves superior to those who came before. The great sociologists and historians taught us that the mistakes of previous generations would be made again and again, despite warnings from the wise. And so they are proved right. We are human, and we are fated to err. The boomer generation is not immune to the laws of economics. Furthermore, the “end of history” did not occur, as alleged by Francis Fukuyama. Even now, at this very moment, we are up to our necks in history. Ours is not a “more perfect world” than our forefathers. The world is still the same world, with the same problems as before. If our grandparents had to contend with Hitler and Imperial Japan, we must contend with Putin and the Chinese communists.

Last month Russia successfully test-fired a multiple-warhead road-mobile ICBM. It is a type of weapon the United States doesn’t have and doesn’t plan to develop. The RS-24 can carry up to three warheads, using technology from the advanced Topol-M system (already deployed). As a mobile platform the RS-24 can hide almost anywhere, so the United States cannot determine if it is falling behind in a new arms race. The Russian navy has also test-fired a new submarine launched ballistic missile called the Sineva. Those who laugh at Russia’s meager economy will be baffled by the regeneration of Russia’s armed forces, based as they are on a strategy of “leveling the playing field” (literally) with missiles.

The year 2008 will clarify the position of the United States as a great power in relation to the emerging power of China and the supposedly defunct power of Russia. If the financial crisis worsens (as it is likely to do), a political crisis is bound to follow. Few dare talk about this crisis (even now), although communists have been discussing it for many decades. Mainly, they have been considering how they will exploit a major economic crisis. With the Western intelligentsia sunk in the mire of political correctness, and the stupefaction of a television-besotted public, they are the only party on Earth that is psychologically ready with answers and slogans. Their political powder is dry, and they are well stocked. There is every reason to believe that the public will be confused, that the politicians will be knocked off balance.

The year 2008 may be a year of decision, not because it is a presidential election year, but because the West may be shaken to its foundations.

end of article...

The gift of biblical wisdom has not evaded you Ironman. Through Scripture we see the errors of men and the futility of their hope. In this you brother have not erred....

Your brother in Christ

Jeff Marshalek

 2008/1/4 21:29Profile

Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1572
Scotland, UK


broclint said:

The incident in Numbers 20 had nothing to do with prophecy in any sense in which we can make some kind of claims about prophecy. If there is any prophecy in the incident it had to do with GOD’s word to Moses, and not Moses speaking for God to the people. He did not prophesy to them in this chapter, he gave them water. And God honored him as His prophet, his servant, even though he had to suffer the consequences of his disobedience in this incident of smiting the rock instead of speaking to it.

Agreed there is no mention of prophecy there but I never said there was.

Please take note this has not come from any teaching course just in case you think that. This something I have observed in others and in myself.

My friend Gods gift is perfect but we are not.

What I am trying to bring out that Moses who functioned as a prophet got angry. I humbly submit that you read things correctly before posting.
Look at what the bible says about Moses.

Num 12v3 Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men that were upon the face of the earth.

broclint said:
We all are given time to grow in the Lord.

In Numbers 12 Moses is declared the very meek if fact more meek than anyone else in the face of the world. Did Moses need more time to Grow in his gifting...............

1.There was no water the people come against Moses and Aarron
2.Moses and Aarron went to the tent of the meeting.
3.God speaks to them and gives Instruction(We don't know how long they where before God)
4.Moses gets ANGRY and says to the people you rebels and hits the rock twice
5.God speaks and tells Moses and Aarron he is not geting into the promised land.

I will say it again if you operate as a prophet or have a prophetic unction you have to be careful not to step into the flesh and get angry when dealing with the things of God. This is a area where a prophet or someone prophetic must be careful.

I would submit to you that this is not out of context.

Colin Murray

 2008/1/4 22:00Profile

Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: anger

quote: I will say it again if you operate as a prophet or have a prophetic unction you have to be careful not to step into the flesh and get angry when dealing with the things of God. This is a area where a prophet or someone prophetic must be careful.

I agree that in anything we do we cannot get into the flesh. James said:
James 1:19 - 20 (NKJV) 1So then, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath; 20for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

I was just typing this when I read your post:
I quoted the verses from the Lord regarding being justified or condemned by our words, and hardly had I got down to pray before the sting of those words were the mirror to my own soul.

I certainly do not ever want to try to come across as someone talking down from some feeling of superiority and super-spirituality… I know how far I am from where I desire to be in Christ. I posted earlier on the thread the church atmosphere for many years of my life in which one “prophesy” after another was given out, until the attitude for many was “let’s get out of here, this is a rerun”.

As many others have posted here, I certainly do hope that both these men, Rahman who has posted a genuine apology, and Ironman will stay in this fellowship of folks who express such a sincere desire to grow in knowledge and wisdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. We need the call to accountability and the “iron sharpening iron” as I believe it was Krispy, who said on another thread, to keep the starch knocked out of us, to humble us, to encourage one another in time of need, to rebuke and exhort when we need that also…

It took me watching silently for several months before I was brave enough to put words into such a permanent form… but then by doing so… as, I believe CRSSCHK said earlier on this thread, we face (this is certainly not a quote) a little preview of the judgment by having all things out in the open publicly.

Bless you all…

I will be silent for a while now as I seek to practice what I have posted.



Clint Thornton

 2008/1/4 22:11Profile

Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


Great gifteness comes with a price. Your friend had giftings without character. In the OT we see a school of the prophets, no doubt they studied the scripture, one wasn't considered a prophet unless (as the old sages say) they could write without one error the torah, 5 book of the law. What a test! That was from memory btw. I think the prophetic giftings, dreams--visions--various signs and wonders and manifestations are by in large misunderstood. Like most things they take alot of our personal time and effort, not only in prayer and fasting but also study in the Word of God. the prophet Daniel would set his face to understand a matter God would give him. I often times have thought how long was it between the time a thing was given to one of the prophets and the understanding came. Days? Weeks? Months? Years? This generation wants everything instant coffee, personally I don't enjoy instant coffee :-( I don't discount what I hear from most people who say things from the Lord until I have a scripture to do so and that from the Word of God at the mouth of the Lord in some quickening. As with warnings from dreams and visions there is more evidence that these things scripturally didn't come to pass because they caused such a state of repentance that God turned away His anger.

We look for a Ninevah type repentance, but also need to rember that it would have only took a handful of people to spare Sodom. I like to think about Joseph, the husband of Mary, who twice had a dream which spared his family, I wonder why God didn't just speak to him directly, or by a prophet or some heavenly sign or something, I suppose this was the surest way God could speak to him and he would understand.

The psalmist said :Psa 19:3 There is no speech; there are no words;
their voice is not heard.
I do take some liberties here, but the principle is the same, Paul 1Th 5:16 Rejoice always;
1Th 5:17 pray without ceasing;
1Th 5:18 in everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus to you-ward.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit;
1Th 5:20 despise not prophesyings;
1Th 5:21 prove all things; hold fast that which is good;
I think it's interesting which church he gave this exhortation to. But we would do well not to ignore these words. prove/hold, that'll preach!

Rahman and Ironman will be just fine. They'll get up, brush off the dirt and keep walking looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of thier faith.


 2008/1/4 23:03Profile

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732



Your friend had giftings without character.

Hey, I think I resemble that remark. It is quite a succinct diagnosis for much of what is going on today.

In the OT we see a school of the prophets, no doubt they studied the scripture, one wasn't considered a prophet unless (as the old sages say) they could write without one error the torah, 5 book of the law.

What an important point this is. (I believe Broclint and Paulwest were also touching on this.)

One of the greatest misconceptions being passed around in both 'spirit-filled' and 'emergent' circles these days is that the early church didn't have the bible and therefore had to rely exclusivley on spiritual revelation such as individual prophetic words to get by. Yet, as you point out, even the Old Testament Jew had a bible. They understood that God's people were never expected to live by whatever relativistic inspiration popped into their heads or hearts. The idea that the people of God are to live under the authority of scripture rather then the authority of men is not a Reformer's idea, but an Old Testament idea inherited by the first century Christians.

How else could the first century Christians be considered a threat to Roman multi-culturalism which certainly had room for one more religous point of view. It wasn't the community of Christians formulating a prophetic word that threatened Ceasar, but it was their written words from God formulating a prophetic people. Their character was defined not by urgent pleading prophets, but according to the objective propositions of the bible...which compelled them to affirm openly the truth that there is no Lord except Christ. In healthy churches the Word forms the Church, but in unhealthy churches the church forms the word.

My point here, to affirm yours, is that the prophetic voice of a prophet is not found in individual spiritual revelation but in the established and written word of God.



ps. whenever you can make it south, I'll grind the beans right in front of you before I make your coffee. ;-)

Mike Compton

 2008/1/4 23:35Profile

Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


Paul west, If there is such a thing as 5 fold ministry then the office of prophet is as viable as the other 4 .
Different people have different callings.
Mine may be different than yours.
That doesn't mean it wrong ......just different.
Its obvious to me you dont think much of john the revelator mach11 or me so nothing is new in your attitude against me.

It is interesting you ascribe 2 scriptures to me from job and yet in your opening and closing sentences of your post on 1/4 20;26 you sound exactly like job's comforters.


 2008/1/5 0:54Profile

Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas


Hi David,

Paul west, If there is such a thing as 5 fold ministry then the office of prophet is as viable as the other 4 .

I don't dispute this. I am wary, however, of some of the foolishness that masquerades these days as "prophetic" and the misapplication of the term. Please, brother, I have nothing against you personally. If you want to publically disclose your visions of Bill Clinton and certain cities being destroyed and whatever else, fine, but do not expect everyone here to embrace your prophetic mantle carte blanche.

Its obvious to me you dont think much of john the revelator mach11 or me so nothing is new in your attitude against me.

Well, I admit I don't think much about [i]the ministries[/i] of the modern-day John the Revelators very much. And I don't know many people in this forum that do. David, I think if you knew me you would really like me, and I'm sure I would like you! Let's both try not to let emotion bleed through this. It's really easy to misconstrue things over the computer and jump to hasty conclusions. No one here is more guilty of this than I. My attitude against you is quite fine as a brother - my concerns are aimed only at the things people type in here - and I pray such is reciprocated.

It is interesting you ascribe 2 scriptures to me from job and yet in your opening and closing sentences of your post on 1/4 20;26 you sound exactly like job's comforters.

Yes, brother, I ascribed those passages from Job to your post, regarding the "visions" you mentioned; how am I now sounding like Job's comforters? Please be more specific and show me where and how in quotes - because I don't know what all those those numbers mean (1/4, 20,26?). You're free to contest anything I submit here if it doesn't sound right, and we can discuss it without animosity. I do not in any way deny the efficacy of the office of the prophet; I only question perhaps your understanding of it.

Have a great weekend and God bless you!

Brother Paul

Paul Frederick West

 2008/1/5 2:15Profile


Hi Katy

Not able to study it in detail just now, but think I can say Amen to all of it.

But why specifically addressed to me, rather than to everyone?

Just wondering...

Love in Him



Katy-did wrote:

If Jesus said Himself only the Father Knows for sure the time of His return, then date speculation of anything is questionable....and especially off the mark completely in this area.

I think we can see from the news areas of Prophecy coming to pass, however, those things were all ready foretold in scripture. Anyone can take a jab at dooms day prophecy, but does that make THEM a prophet? NO!

God sets up kingdoms and tears them down according to HIS purposes, and these purposes are working together to fulfill what has all ready been written in scripture,

Jesus said, WHEN you see these things come to know what time it is. He didn't say...when you HEAR someone Prophecy of these things.....bla, bla, bla.

Many problems with the new baby Christian or even an old one who hasn't grown in the grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ, is their taking out of context OT scripture that applied to or applies to Israel alone...not correctly dividing the word of Truth.

A Prophet in the NT, is one who builds up the Church...the Body of or Heavenly Calling...not earthly situations.

These who keep your eyes on earthly things are actually enemies of the Cross..

Nostradamus (sp) predicted many things...but certainly was no prophet. Don't you think the devil also knows about things?

Since America is not specifically mentioned in scripture, we will assume it is a gentile NATION, just like any other Gentile Nation.

What does God say will happen to Gentile Nations?

For those who assume that America replaced Israel, that we are a Theocracy as Israel was, and apply God's warning to us in the same way is wrong.

Just as Nineveh (a gentile Nation was warned...and they repented, and any gentile nation who does repent, will be judged with the Nations, at the Judgment of Nations...Matthew 25, but that is not to be confused with judging individual Christians.

Jesus didn't come to save Nations, but Individual soul at at a time.

To make America (because they proclaimed themselves God's New Chosen People) ready for God's wrath because they have not repented is not found in scripture.

The Judgment of Nations is based on how that Nation treated Israel. And the Judgment of the sheep and goats are how individuals treated Jews.

However the Church (A heavenly organism) is not what this judgment is about( Matthew 25), as the Church at this time will be reigning with Christ at His return.

Because of the lack of understanding, we have a Hodge podgy of self proclaimed prophets thinking we are now in the tribulation period...we are not.

Therefore, ****during this age of Grace****, don't expect to see God's wrath on America, or anywhere else.

However, you have seen over history a nation losing God's favor for their dealings with Jews. See Spanish History for one.

I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you......that stands until the very end, regardless of where Israel is with the Lord at this time.

When or if America turns its back on Israel, THEN you will see that umbrella taken away.

But, when or if, is still in God's Hands and His timing for His purpose.

Keep your eyes on the Lord...looking UP...not down and around.

You have a Heavenly Calling, not an earthly one.

A Prophet in the NT is one who will have you keep your eyes looking up, reminding you your life in IN CHRIST.

Jesus Christ is made to each and every one of us, Wisdom and Knowledge, and we are Complete In Him.

James says, if you have a question ASK GOD, who is without variance or shadow of turning....and God will answer you, but if you waver on what He says, and say...oh gee, let me see what my favorite self proclaimed prophet says.....then forget it...He considers you a double minded man, unstable in all your ways.

Faith comes by hearing, and Hearing the Word of God...and the JUST shall live by Faith, in the substance of things Hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.....

Jesus Christ is our Blessed Hope! Not this world, or anything in it!

Love in Christ

Please re-visit:

*******Philippians 3******

 2008/1/5 13:18



Compton wrote:
I think everyone here knows the U.S. is overdue for a hit.

I didn't know that.


Nor me. Were you thinking of a specific kind of "hit"?

I know that there are earthquake zones, such as in the Yellowstone National Park, where a huge one could come at any time.

And the Twin Towers may well not be the last, or even the worst major act of terrorism suffered.

And the stock market collapse seems rather like the earthquake; could come any time, or it could be years in the future.

Maybe you could expand on this? (Maybe you already have, not read to the end of the thread yet).



 2008/1/5 13:23

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