IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
I do not understand, how it is that a man can teach a man centered gospel, and this is alright with the majority who have been posting on here. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the Gospel renunciation of self, and rising to Christ's life in you? Also, how many of us have actually read the book? Isn't it interesting that if Joel Osteen was going many here would tear him apart because he preaches a man centered gospel, yet RW is untouchable?
i don't think it's true that we agree with rick warren's theology, in fact it seems to me we all agree that we disagree with his theology and have established it to be a man-centred one. you'll get no arguement from me on that. the issue however is we also need to consider the sovereignty of God. here we are saying this man is unfit to preach the word to this nation, yet this is the man God has appointed. i wonder if much of this has to do with our own egos and wanting to be the one to go so we may get some time in the limelight. our Lord shine His light on all our hearts to reveal if this is true that we may repent if it is. AMEN.
the bottom line is, qualified in our eyes or not, God has made it so that this man goes. when paul got saved he was the very [i][b]last[/b][/i] person any Christian wanted anything to do with coz he was not a nice guy yet God used Him. Abraham and sarah were both way past having kids yet it pleased God to use them to birth His nation of Israel. God has a knack for doing such and the key issue is we need to get over ourselves and reckon with our Lord's sovereingty in all things. honestly who among us is a better man that rick warren yet it pleases God to use us. i say we seek our Lord and get with whatever He is trying to do. God's plan will not be stopped so we should get with it.
i don't like the man's theology but i trust in our Lord's sovereignty and that He will see His will done.
| 2006/7/13 12:22||Profile|
Santa Cruz California
Brother Bartle, I think we are all forgetting something here, and that is that there will always be a false spiritual empire, and there will be a true Church. There is a true Church in North Korea as I have read many reports from Voice of the Martyrs, and other missions groups. These folks will have nothing to do with this, as it would be too much of a danger to the underground fellowships there.
I know you said you did not want to go point by point through the Saddleback beliefs, but I simply wanted to ask about one in particular.
Under the "view of man" it says that man has potential to do good or something to that extent. This is contrary to scripture. For the Scriptures say that the heart of man is deceitful and wicked, and that the heart of man imagines evil constantly(these are paraphrases, but check Gen 6:15) The only way our heart can be changed is when GOD in mercy fulfills what HIS promise is in Ezekiel 36 about HIM giving us a new heart, and putting HIS Spirit within us. This only can happen when we die to self. We cannot do good apart from CHRIST read Romans 1. Notice also the Pharisees did all kinds of good, preached how to join their "purpose", and yet Jesus said that they were of their father the devil.
The people of North Korea will hear the Gospel of our Lord, but not through Rick Warren, or any other government sanctioned speaker it just doesn't work that way. They will hear it through brothers and sisters who risk all for HIM that is worthy. We may never know their names or faces, but rest assured they have a treasure awaiting them.
I'm also sure that if Kim Yong knew the Bible, guess what chapter would quickly become his favourite Romans 13. Why, because all kinds of governments like to throw this around as to not get any questioning about what they are doing. Hitler told Lutheran Pastors as well as others to preach from this chapter, and he also used the phrase "god is with us" as he destroyed millions of people. Sorry a little off topic, but just so you know.
One last point, you mentioned earlier that Kim Yong is searching for GOD, again that is contrary to Scripture. The Scriptures declare "there is none that seek after GOD". But here is the beautiful thing GOD seeks after men !!
| 2006/7/13 12:37||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
barytle PLEASE explaine why God would go to the extrordinary lengths that He did to bring us The GOSPEL,( sacrificing His own Son) and then use a false teacher to take a false gospel to anyone? That suggestion is completely anti-biblical, and totally contrary to the teaching of scripture. Can you present a single scripture to support your position?
well one could also ask God why He used Paul who was a pharisee and a persecutor of the Church to preach the gospel. why would God use Moses not as crown prince of egypt but as a shepherd to lead his people out of egypt, moses too was a murderer. then christ is always identified as the son of david, david was an adulterer and a murderer...i think this is scriptural evidence enough that God can use whoever He wants. but maybe we also ought to consider that noone who we think qualified was willing to go and rick warren (false gospel and all) said "i'll go" perhaps we who think we can preach it better don't have guts enough to go and God is exposing our fear to us and once again showing that He is SOVEREIGN. This is the issue here. we must also look beyond what we see in the natural and know that everything is moving toward the fulfilment of God's will to His own glory and we ought to get on that train.
should we speak out against the false gospel? we should, and rick warren preaches a false gospel. however this is who God chose...i fear that for all our complaints against rick warren and him going to korea, none of us would dare go if God asked us to go...
our God has exposed our foolishness and unwillingness to go forth for Him by sending a false teacher to a starving land...He has shamed us. sure rick warren will have to answer for preaching falsely, but we will have to answer for sitting onour butts in disobedience...God help us!AMEN.
| 2006/7/13 12:43||Profile|
| Re: God uses outlandish means|
please explain why God would use a false teacher to take a false gospel to anyone? That suggestion is completely anti-biblical, and totally contrary to the teaching of scripture. Can you present a single scripture to support your position?
Smokey, I respond, using a variety of personal experiences. (I just posted this on the Emergent Church thread but realize that it belongs here. Oops
One day, some years ago, I found myself alone in a RC church facing a life-size true-to-color crucifix. I had no idea what was to happen. The Spirit awoke in me a reality of the cross that had never been part of my experience. I was deeply broken as I gazed on my beloved Savior via a replica. I wept. For years I had become desensitized by seeing polished crosses all the time. I needed the shock value of the real thing. ( I didn't need to accept the RC doctrine)
On another occasion the Lord brought deep conviction through some secular music. Again, it had a shock-value, much needed because I had become slightly desensitized to scriptures that were meant to say the same thing that God spoke to me through the songs.
One time the Lord took me into the Red Light District in Amsterdam and spoke a powerful, life-changing message to me. (Its on my site) I needed the shock-value of the unusual experience.
Another time God led me to a healing and deliverance organization and there I was healed of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. The organization was not altogether what I would call orthodox.
I could add many more examples, and so could you.
I have learned that God is not opposed to using, quite deliberately, organizations and individuals who are quite off the wall as far as pure orthodoxy. Who are we to get in the way?
This is the risk that God seems to take: When one has a powerful spiritual experience, he or she is tempted to go back to that place and stay put. Who doesnt want to relive what happened in their past? However thats when one can get hooked to that group, and to the voice of its leaders.
Sadly many dont wish to move on with God. There will always be many who prefer to attach themselves to man-made organizations and charismatic leaders through whom they felt blessed in their past. I know some Mormons and JWs who stayed put for that very reason. .. Oh, by the way, I forgot to include examples of how God used even these people to speak to me.
Now Im sure you will consider me a heretic if I say that God even used Scott Peck and Henry Nouwin to get through my mental callouses. These people, though, they may be off, have an amazing way of seeing right through our religious hypocrisy, and in some ways they think more Christ-like than many Christians.
As much as we like playing hockey with theological pucks, there comes the time when we realize that we will never win. So we put the equipment on a shelf and look to our blessed Lord, and trust that he works in the most outlandish ways.
| 2006/7/13 14:09||Profile|
| Re: Rick Warren to Preach in Communist North Korea|
Does it matter whom God chooses to deliver His word? I think we should pray for him as christians that the Holy Spirit will touch his tongue and place his word in his mouth, so that he can proclaim the word God boldly and unadultrated.
The biggest problem I see among christians is the fact that, we cut each others throat thinking we are doing God some good, instead of going down on our knee in prayer.
God in these times need some praying christians!!! LETS SUPPORT HIM INPRAYER, NO MATTER WHAT WE FEEL ABOUT HIM.
| 2006/7/13 16:34||Profile|
| Re: who is going where and who is sending them?|
I'd like to share this qoute again from the news item which brother Bartle provided for us. [b]It seems like maybe we are discussing something here that isn't really taking place as we understand it?[/b]
The emphasis is added by me.
According to Warren's own account posted on his Web site, a delegation of [b]South Korean[/b] [u]businessmen[/u] visited him at Saddleback Church in late June [b]and invited him[/b] to speak at the public outdoor Christian service to be held in the North Korean capital in March next year marking the 100th anniversary of the Pyongyang Revival in 1907. [b]The South Koreans[/b] had [u]obtained permission[/u] for the service, which will be the first of its kind in 60 years as the dictatorial North Korean regime virtually bans any religious activities in public.
Is it the N. Korean Goverment that is actually inviting Mr. Warren? Or has he simply been invited by South Koreans to an event they are holding in N. Korea, for which they had already gotten approval for. Not that that approval isn't significant in itself, but this seems to change the whole dynamic of the discussion, to some degree anyway.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2006/7/13 16:40||Profile|
| Re: Love rejoices in truth|
Beloved, it is possible to understand [b]all of human history[/b] through the lense of Divine Providence.
But is it fitting that our earthly gaze should be so besmudge by the sin tainted efforts of man that we loose our zeal for righteousness and truth?
Becuase iniquitiy abounds, will our love wax cold?
[b][i]Rejoiceth not in iniquity[/b][/i]
[b][i]but rejoiceth in the truth[/b] [/i]
[i]Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place of wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! for they be all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men. And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: [b]but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth[/b]; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the Lord.[/i]
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2006/7/13 16:58||Profile|
Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| Re: evangelists|
Thank you for the insight. I think if you check scripture more closely you will find out that when Moses took it upon himself to lead his people, he ended up killing an Egyptian, and having to flee into the desert. Only after 40 years of living on the back side of the desert, and an encounter with God at the burning bush, did God send him to deliver his people out of Egypt.
As for Paul, you are quite right that he was a pharisee, and a persecutor of the the Church. However, on the road to Damascus, God brought him to his face, and after 3 days, filled him with the Holy Spirit. He then spent 3 more years in close relationship with God before he was sent to preach the gospel.
I appreciate the point that you are trying to make, however your examples do not cover this situation.
As a side note the example that bartle uses about the donkey being used of God to deliver a message. You will find that God used the donkey to REBUKE the man who was spreading a false witness.
P.S. These are my last comments on this thread..There is really nothing else that I can add to what I have already said.
| 2006/7/13 17:35||Profile|
| Re: Ironman...here's who's been in training to go NK|
and they have made the committment
by life or by death.
and they are in a 40 day fast and prayer mode that finishes on 15 August.
won't somebody else help them?
I've watched them, attended prayer meetings, I've never seen such soul bending, Christ loving heart wrenching prayers cried up to heaven by this totally dedicated on fire for Jesus young people. Literally weeping and crying out to God to save their people and to use THEM to do it!!
they have a tiny plain office, no salaries, but they need our help, both via prayer and financial.
They have no link with warren, they are only obeying the call of God on their lives.
Prayer is a mighty weapon, and these are intense warriors, join in this battle with them, please.
| 2006/7/13 17:50|
| Re: Smokey|
you caught that about the donkey, but you might not have caught what I meant.
God is pushing open the door on North Korea: someone will push that door open, so that God willing thousands of Spirit-filled, Jesus loving missionaries may pour thru.
now, there is one other way, that God might allow the door to be opened to North Korea, and it's not the way anyone, loving would want. Its the Four Horseman, and I beg God to stay His hand on that option.
There is an intense spiritual battle be waged on the Korea peninsula right now, please pray for a Jesus reconciliation over that land. We can see in Israel, Gaza, Lebanon, Iraq and soon Iran what happpens when the Four Horsemen get to riding.
| 2006/7/13 18:00|