| Poster | Thread | philologos
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| | Re: | | Quote:
"A crisis that doesn't lead to a process will become an absess." - Ron Bailey
I think I got it from George Verwer of Operation Mobilization.
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Ron Bailey
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|  2006/6/27 2:27 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
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| | Re: | | :oops: Sorry my mistake. :-)
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/6/27 8:09 | Profile | Christinyou
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Ca.
| | Re: | | A full Bucket of Grace by birth, Growing in the Bucket forever.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2006/6/27 18:10 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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| | Re: | | Quote:
"A crisis that doesn't lead to a process will become an absess." - Ron Bailey
John 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb, can he?
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, How can these things be?
3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, That everyone who believes into Him may hve eternal life".
Numbers 21:8 "Then Jehovah said to Moses, Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live."
The Lord, spoke to Nicodemus conserning the nature of the New Birth, it's divine origin, and it's mechanics being of the Spirit. But then he comes to the great questian of "how".
IN addressing the "how" of the New Birth, the Lord Jesus ultimately brought Nicodemus to Moses in the wilderness and the brazen serpent.
According to our Lord's teaching, the way we are "born again" is by looking to Jesus, crucified for our sins.
The Isrealites had sinned, speaking against Jehovah and Moses and God had sent serpents among them and they were bitten and dying. They confessed and repented and cried out to Moses and God commanded Moses to make a brazen 'firey" serpent, put it on a pole, and when the children of Isreal looked upon it, they lived.
This is God's way. They looked and they lived. They looked away to the One on the pole hanging their symbolic of Christ who was made sin on our behalf.
THe how of the New Birth is repenting (turning our heart) toward God, confessing our sin and lost condition, and looking to Christ, crucified for our sins on the cross. As we do, God applies the Blood of Christ and regenerates our dead spirit, enters into us and we become alive.
This is not a process we enter into, rather it is a once for all event. It is the consumation of a process of the Spirit's convicting, enlightening, and witnessing to the gospel leading us to confession and faith by looking to Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins.
While conviction and such are a process leading up to the New Birth, the New Birth itself is the end of the process and the beginning of the New Life.
The New Birth is a crises (in our experience) that leads to a process (sanctification and growth in life) but the New Birth is not an ongoing process. The New Birth is just that, a Birth.
I don't know many people walking around for 20 years still waiting to complete their first birthday. The New Birth brings the Life of God into us, and we grow in that Life from that day one with proper food, care, and protection. It is growth in that Life already recieved in the New Birth that constitutes the process of sanctification, transformation, and finally transfiguration.
Graftedbranch
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| | 2006/7/1 9:50 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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| | Re: | | "Truely, Truely I say to you, except a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it abides alone, but if it dies, it bears much fruit"
I think a difficulty many have is that we don't see the New Birth as a literal relatity. When the Lord spoke to Nicodemus, he used physical birth to show a literal reality. The New Birth is not a physical reality like returning to one's mother's womb, but rather a spirital reality.
God is Spirit. In His eternal nature He is Spirit. That is what He is. And to be born of God one must be born of the Spirit in the same way that we are physically born of our human parents.
The New Birth is a literal birth. It brings the Life of God into us and makes us children of God, with HIs Life and His nature. It is a literal reality. A life is recieved that was not there before.
To be born of the Spirit is to be regenerated, to recieve the Spirit of Sonship by which we cry "abba Father". And the Spirit literally bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
Just as Physical birth brings us into a physical life in this world, related to our parents by a communicated life, so the New Birth brings us into a relationship with God of Father to sons. We are literally children of God. Not in a metaphorical sense, not even by way of legal adoption and recieveing of privleges of sonship. But literally we are born of God, have His Life and will grow up into full sonship, fully conformed to the image of our Elder Brother, the Lord JEsus who is the Firstborn Son of God in resurrection among many brothers.
We need to have our eyes opened to see these things are not metaphores, but literal relaities. Not physical realities but no less real.
God is Spirit and not physical, Is He any less real? Of course not. He is God and He is Spirit in nature. Only in incarnation does He posses a physical body in Christ.
ANd in regeneration our spiritual birth is no less real and we are no less children of God than we are physically children of our physical parents.
A regenerated Christian is a literal child of God. No less a child of God than the Lord Jesus Himself except that the Lord Jesus Himself as the eternal Only begotton Son of God is the source of our sonship. That is it is His Life that we recieve and partake of His Sonship sharing in His relationship to the Father.
As the single Grain of Wheat, the lord Jesus as the Only begotton Son of God fell to the ground and died and in resurrection He has become the First Born Son of God among many brothers. The Only Begotton has become the First begotton.
He is the One who sanctifies and we are the ones being sanctified and both He and we are of One Source, the same source, the Fasther. And the issue of this is in bringing many sons to glory as Hebrews tells us.
For this cause He is not ashamed to call us brothers.
IN resurrection in John 21 He appeared to Mary Magdoline and said, "Go to my Brothers, tell them I ascend to My Father and their Father, My God and their God. The Lord revealed to Mary that we were no longer friends, no longer just diciples, we are brothers, sharing His Life and sharing His relationship to the Father.
Through the process of incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection, the Lord Jesus has dealt with our sins on the Cross and in resurrection imparts His LIfe into us making us sons of God, literally, sharing in His eternal, Divine, Life. We are literally children of God and as John says, "And children we are. It has not yet appeared what we shall be, but when He appears, we shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is."
We need to be clear on this. WE need to let go of the idea of symbolism and metaphores and have our eyes opened to see the divine realities. And we need to boldness to decare, "I am not just an adopted Son but I have the Father's Life. I am a genuine son of God. Abba Father".
And we are growing into His Likeness not by behavior modification, not by trying to act like God, but by the growth of His Life within us.
Graftedbranch
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| | 2006/7/1 10:19 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
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Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
Graftedbranc wrote:
This is not a process we enter into, rather it is a once for all event. It is the consumation of a process of the Spirit's convicting, enlightening, and witnessing to the gospel leading us to confession and faith by looking to Jesus Christ, crucified for our sins.
While this is true, it takes away from the heart of the comment it is pointing to. "Birth" is not about "exiting the womb", and much as it is about "breathing after you've entered the world". Sadly there are many "spiritual STILL BORNS" and "ABORTIONS", because the "process" is neglected after the intial "crisis". This is the spiritual equivilent to dropping the baby into a rubbish bin, after it's born, and expecting it to live on the scraps it finds. That would be ludicrous, but sadly that is what often happens. New converts are not warned of the "persecutions" that attract toward those who "will live godly in Christ Jesus", for one example, and as a result, fall away disillusioned.
I thank God that someone handed me a copy of Winkie Pratney's "Youth Aflame" the day I put my trust in Christ. I knew that after reading the chapter on "Cleaning out the closet", if this "christian thing" didn't work out, it was because I hadn't repented....daily, of my sins.
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/7/1 12:36 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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| | Re: | | Quote:
"Birth" is not about "exiting the womb", and much as it is about "breathing after you've entered the world". Sadly there are many "spiritual STILL BORNS" and "ABORTIONS", because the "process" is neglected after the intial "crisis".
I would have to say that birth is about exiting the womb. That is what birth is. Although we cannot press the simularities too far in realtion to being born of the Spirit because in the Spiritual realm birth immediatly follows conception. There is no gestation period in the womb.
But the issue is one of life and possesion of Life. Not it's development, not it's nurturing, but the actual possession of Life and that is what the New Birth is about.
When John in 1 John 5 says, "God has given us Eternal Life, this Life is in His Son. He who has the Son, has the Life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life." There is no questian of degrees, or of health of life. Rather it is a matter of either being alive or dead. There is no partial life and no partial death. There are no in betweens.
If there is no life, no amount of feeding, no amount of nurturing, no amount of teaching can cause it to grow or be healthy. If there is no Divine Life, there is nothing to grow. But if theier is the Divine Life then no matter how feeble, no matter how small, how undectible, it is still there. Even if men cannot detect it, nevertheless it is there. There is Life. And if that Life is nourished and nurtured and fed, it will grow and become healthy. Actually it is not the Life that is unhealthy, but we are unhealthy because of the small amount of Life.
And so as to the New Birth. You are either born or you are not. YOu either have the life of God within you or you do not. Your dead spirit has either been made alive or it has not. IT is not a matter of process. It is not a matter of degree. It is an either or situation. "He who has the Son has the Life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the Life."
As to the experience of this Life, or it's growth in the believer, that is another issue altogether. If the believer is not nourished and fed and watered and cultivated, the Life will be stunted and it's growth hindered. But it is still there. And it is the Life of God and it is Eternal in nature and can never perish and can never be "unborn".
A new born may be coughing, weezing, malnourished, and unhealthy, nevertheless he is alive and there are no degrees of life.
But just as being born physically brings us into the process of growth so it is with the New Birth. The New born Babe longs for the pure milk of the Word. It can't do anything, it can only eat and drink. And it grows. And as it grows it begins to walk and finally to speak. It may be incomprehensable dribble, but it speaks. And as it grows it matures and finally becomes a strong young man. And so on. It grows up in all things into Christ who is the Head...
THe New Birth brings the Life of God into us. Sanctification, transformation, conformation are the processes through which this Life recieved is developed, grown, and matured.
Graftedbranch
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| | 2006/7/1 14:43 | Profile | PaulWest
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Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Perhaps the reason we have so many "still-borns" is because they never remained long enough in the "womb of conviction." The result is a victim of the premature birth: a dying fetus. I've seen it so many times. The new "Jesus" experience lasts for a few months; they wear the t-shirts, have the flashy bible cover, they put the bumper stickers all over their car...but alas. When the high wears off, it's back to ground zero, and they're even more miserable and shackled to sin then they were before - proving scripture right.
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Paul Frederick West
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| | 2006/7/1 15:00 | Profile | roadsign
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| | Re: stillbirths or live births | | Quote:
"Birth" is not about "exiting the womb", and much as it is about "breathing after you've entered the world". Sadly there are many "spiritual STILL BORNS" and "ABORTIONS", because the "process" is neglected after the intial "crisis".
I like this point that you bring forth, Aaron, and will add another twist.
You point out: Exiting the womb is not necessarily a birthing of life. There must be an intake of air. So without the air, the birth is really a death process: a stillbirth.
In a spiritual stillbirth there has been a failure to receive the life-giving Spirit when expected. Perhaps this is something like the seeds that fell on unprepared soil. There may very well be some process of hidden beginnings, but when the shout sprouts it doesnt last - the heart is not ready or fully prepared.
I refer to my first salvation as a stillbirth because when the obstetrician brought the hidden developing life into the open there was no Spirit. It wasnt Gods timing. Your word, abortion (premature delivery), is fitting. Man takes the baby from the womb in mans timing, without waiting for God to bring about the birth. As you pointed out, there has not been an adequate time of preparation like counting the cost, or many other considerations. Man tries to hurry it up. He tries to produce life that only God can, and he calls this being born again. No wonder we have so many who say, Lord, Lord
who are not His.
Friends, we must learn to value the process of gestation. God knows best.
I explain [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=11241&forum=35&0]my story here[/url] Im sure that there are many similar stories of how God brought about life after a stillbirth. Id love to hear them.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2006/7/1 15:19 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
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| | Re: | | Quote:
roadsign wrote:
You point out: Exiting the womb is not necessarily a birthing of life. There must be an intake of air. So without the air, the birth is really a death process: a stillbirth.
Nice...that is exactly the point. You can repent until the "cows come home", but if the Spirit isn't received as a result of our "FAITH in Christ", then there is no LIFE. Did you know that New Age business manuals now refer to "metanoia" (the Greek word for "repentance") as a necessary ingredient for success? ANd not only that, but their understanding of the meaning of the word is better than most "christians".
I disagree that "Birth" begins in the womb. I believe that their are many who are "heavily convicted" in the "womb of repentance", who never "humble themselves" by "turning toward Christ". They many call on the "name" of the Lord, but it is really a "near perfect replica" of the "authentic God". It is of utmost importance that we allow the Holy Spirit to expose our adherance to "subtle errors" that are born of of "wishful thinking". Otherwise we will be sending many to hell by smiling as we pat the on the back saying, "Good for you brother, your saved!!"
In my Book, it's not until the "Spirit bares witness" that one is "Born Again".
Check out Keith Daniel's [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=3994]The Spiritual Birth[/url], for some really good thoughts on this.
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/7/3 7:28 | Profile |
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