| Poster | Thread |
| | Re:Other Promised Seeds | | Stever's response to Dorcas (statement found below my post):
I am having difficulty with your statement below. Specifically what [b][color=0000FF]other "promised seeds" [/color][/b]are you referring to, that can be found in the Bible, that were prophesized by God Himself in the Old Testament?
Who are you referring to--Isaac, or???
Please provide Biblical proof text for your statement below.
God bless,
Stever
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Quote:
dorcas wrote:
Hi Stever,
I do [u]know[/u] that the Bible usually refers to 'seed' in connection with men. And, I do [u]know[/u] that the reference in Gensis 3:15, so early in scripture, establishes as FACT that [u]women do have 'seed'[/u], and, that this is the [i]only[/i] [u]mention[/u] of women's seed, in scripture. I also accept this was a reference [i]specifically[/i] to Christ
. That is, that the Child whom Mary bore, was the Seed whom God had promised would bruise the serpents head. [b][color=0000FF]Im sure you know there were other promised seeds, who fulfilled other roles. [/color][/b]
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|  2006/7/4 9:35 | |
| | Re: Pleading the blood? | | Stever said:
Quote:
I am having difficulty with your statement below. Specifically what other "promised seeds" are you referring to, that can be found in the Bible, that were prophesized by God Himself in the Old Testament?
Who are you referring to--Isaac, or???
Please provide Biblical proof text for your statement below.
Isaac is the main one, if you insist on God Himself being the person who does the speaking.
But, in view of how the Hebrews responded to the news taht God wanted to show them how close He wanted to be to them, by letting them see Him talk with Moses, it's not surprising there is no further word from God Himself directly to man.
Here are some chapter and verse. I am leaving you to read each story in full for yourself, and decide from the text and other relevant cross-references, what God intended to achieve by each one. I don't offer these in anything other than direct answer to your request above.
Genesis 11:30
But Sarai was barren; she [had] no child.
Genesis 12:7
And [u]the LORD[/u] appeared unto Abram, and [u]said, Unto thy seed[/u] will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 15
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, [b]seeing I go childless[/b],
4 And, behold, the word of [u]the LORD[/u] [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but [u]he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir[/u].
Gensis 18
9 And they said unto him, Where [is] Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, [u][b][i]I[/i][/b] will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; [b]and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son[/b][/u]. And Sarah heard [it] in the tent door, which [was] behind him.
11 Now Abraham and Sarah [were] old [and] well stricken in age; [and] it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
13 And [u]the LORD[/u] said unto Abraham, [b]Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?[/b]
14 [b]Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son[/b].
Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 [u]Neither[/u], because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, [b]In Isaac shall thy seed be called[/b].
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but [u]the children of the promise are counted for [b]the seed[/b][/u].
9 For this [is] the word of promise, [u]At this time [b]will I come[/b], and Sara shall have a son[/u]. [Stever, this son was Isaac.]
10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; [b]there shall they be called [u]the children[/u] of the living God[/b].
[Regarding verse 7
Genesis 21:12
[u]And God said[/u] unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; [b]for in Isaac shall thy seed be called[/b].
Hebrews 11:18
Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
In verse 11, see Paul's comment about the children not yet born. It was by this principle that we were all still in Adam when he sinned. The whole human race [i]began[/i] to [b]be[/b] (descended) from Adam - after he had sinned.] |
| | 2006/7/4 14:47 | |
| | Re: Pleading the blood? | | Here are the others, but God Himself did not announce them.
Judges 13
2And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name [was] Manoah; and his wife [was] barren, and bare not.
3 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou [art] barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
2 Kings 4
16 And he said, About this season, according to the time of life, thou shalt embrace a son. And she said, Nay, my lord, [thou] man of God, do not lie unto thine handmaid.
17 And [b]the woman conceived, and bare a son at that season that Elisha had said[/b] unto her, according to the time of life.
Stever, there are two other barren, women of the Old Testament, who prayed, and God opened their wombs. The first is Rachel (Gen 30) and the next, Hannah, whom Eli blessed.
1 Samuel 1
1 Now there was a certain man of Ramathaimzophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name [was] Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite:
2 And he had two wives; the name of the one [was] Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hannah had no children.
5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb.
17 Then Eli answered and said, [b]Go in peace: and the God of Israel grant [thee] thy petition that [u]thou[/u] hast asked of him[/b].
18 And she said, Let thine handmaid find grace in thy sight. So the woman went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more [sad].
20 Wherefore it came to pass, when the time was come about after Hannah had conceived, that she bare a son, and called his name Samuel, [saying], Because I have asked him of the LORD.
Lastly, but not in the Old Testament, there is the promise of John the Baptist. However, we must remember what a gap there was between the last recorded prophet and John the Baptist, and that he was only 6 months older than Jesus.
It was still the 'Old Testament' as far as Israel was concerned, and until the New 'Testament' had been brought into effect.
Luke 1
11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12 And when Zacharias saw [him], he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, [u]Zacharias: for [b]thy prayer is heard[/b]; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee [b]a son[/b], and thou shalt call his name John[/u].
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived |
| | 2006/7/4 14:56 | | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Stever's Quote:
In conclusion, from what I understand of this matter, Adam was Gods representative on the earth. When he sinned, all were in sin.
That still doesn't explain the transmission. I am still anxious for you to clarify what you think Christ received from Mary. Was Christ of the substance of Mary? and if so how do to persist in your view that Christ's blood was a direct provision from God?
_________________
Ron Bailey
|
| | 2006/7/4 16:39 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Stever responds to Philologos:
At the beginning, after Adams sin, God required a sinless animal to be sacrificed on an altar, and the blood to be poured out, to symbolize the covering of their sin, until the time of the sinless sacrifice, the seed of the woman, that would finally take away the sin of the world
The sacrifice consisted of:
1.Sacrificing a male firstborn lamb or ram.
2.Taking it before the altar, and leaning on the head of the animal, thus symbolically passing the sins from the sinner & his entire family to the substitute, and then slitting it's throat.
4.Sacrificing the animal on the altar by burning the flesh and the inward parts
5.applying the blood to the altar
The animal skins would then be used to make clothing, tents, etc.
Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Genesis 4:3-7 that Abels blood sacrifice was acceptable to the Lord, while Cains SACRIFICE OF SOMETHING ELSE was not:
Adam lived to be 930 years old. He was 130 years old when he sired Seth, 235 years old when Enos was born, 325 years old when Cainan was born, 395 years when Metuhsaleh was born, 395 years old when Mahaleleel was born, 450 years when Jared was born, 874 years old when Jared was born. He died [b][color=0033FF]126[/color][/b] years before Noah was born. (Adam died in 930 A.M. (3017 B.C.) and Noah was born in 1056 AM (2948 B.C.)- ["Chronology of the Old Testament, a Return to the Basics", Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones]
Adam had 930 years to share the Gospel with his children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, and great great grandchildren, while he was in the fields with them. To share with them about God in the garden, and their sin, and in THE PROPHECY, GIVEN TO THEM BY GOD of the "Seed of the Woman", the Messiah to come, and what was required of them in the meantime- a blood sacrifice, the shedding of blood, of a sinless animal to cover sin until Messiah came.
The problem is, some of them beleived, and some didn't. The same problem we have today!
God did not require a human sacrifice of the first born. The human was a sinner, and his polluted, tainted, sinful blood could never cover sin until the seed of the woman arrived. However all of the FALSE RELIGIONS AND CULTS that existed in early antiquity sacrificed their firstborn Sons on the altarthe altar of Molech and other False religions/cults.
God required the blood of a sinless substitute, who was not "in" sin. God required specific clean animals to be sacrificed, and the blood of that sacrifice to cover sinuntil Messiah, who would "take away the sin of the
World with His own sanctified Blood!
We see the requirements for this sacrifice and covering of sin, when we read in Genesis 3 & 4 the following:
Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Genesis 4:3-7 that Abels blood sacrifice was acceptable to the Lord, while Cains SACRIFICE OF SOMETHING ELSE was not:
3. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. 4. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5. But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Later on, we read that Noah brought the animals into the ark 2 X 2. However, if we look closer we will see that he brought in the clean animals, used for sacrifice and food 7 X 7. The ark rested on dry land on the 17th day of Abib-the very same day that Jesus resurrected from the dead! 10 months later, when the land was finally dry, in the 2nd month and 27th day we find that Noah prepared SACRIFICES to the Lord.
Genesis 8:
4. And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. 13. And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
14. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart.
If we look in the book of Job, supposedly one of the oldest books in the Bible, we find Job making sacrifices for his children and his family continually.
[Job 1:5. " And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually."
Job knew the Gospel. He also knew end time evets. He knew that on the last day, he would stand on the earth, in a new resurrected body with His redeemer, the "Seed of the Woman", the Messiah:
Job 19:25-27
" 25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
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Christs blood is not the sinful blood of man, but the very blood of God:
His blood was like a lamb without spot or blemish (I Pet. 1:18-19).
Hebrews 10:5 . Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
The Church was purchased with Gods own blood:
Acts 20:27-28
27. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[b][color=0000FF]It (the Church) was NOT purchased with mans blood, but with the very blood of God.
Mary provided the body, that was impregnated by God through the power of the Holy Spirit.[/color][/b]
Hebrews 10:5 . Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,
[b][color=0000FF]but a body hast thou prepared me:[/color][/b]
As well as in Genesis 3:15where a virgin would conceive.
Mary was overpowered by the Holy Ghost and she became pregnant with Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the "Seed of the Woman.
Luke 1: 35. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Christs blood is cleansing- all of mans blood that has ever existed from the beginning of the world until the end of the world can do NONE OF THESE THINGS, EVEN IF IT WAS ALL ADDED TOGETHER. IT IS TAINTED WITH SIN!:
The All in One Cleansing of the Blood of Jesus
1. It has a virtue to cleanse. It does not actually cleanse all, but only those that believe. There is a sufficiency in it to cleanse all, and there is an efficacy in it to cleanse those that have recourse to it. As when we say a medicine purges such a humour, we understand it is of the virtue and quality of the medicine, not that it purges unless it be taken in, or otherwise applied to the distempered person.
2. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth, not has cleansed, or shall cleanse. This notes a CONTINUED ACT. There is a perpetual pleading of it for us, a continual flowing of it to us. It is a fountain set open for sin, Zech. xiii. 1. There is a constant streaming of virtue from this blood, as there is of corruption from our nature. IT WAS SHED BUT ONCE, IT IS APPLIED OFTEN, AND THE VIRTUE OF IT IS AS DURABLE AS THE PERSON WHOSE BLOOD IT IS- JESUS CHRIST'S BLOOD!
3. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth. The apostle joins nothing with this blood. It has the sole and the sovereign virtue. There is no need of tainted merits, unbloody sacrifices, and terrifying purgatories. The whole of cleansing is ascribed to this blood, NOT ANYTHING TO OUR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS OR WORKS. IT ADMITS NO PARTNER WITH IT, NOT THE BLOOD OF MARTYRS NOR THE INTERCESSIONS OF SAINTS.
4. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from ALL sin. It is an UNIVERSAL REMEDY. Whatsoever has the nature of sin, sins against the law and sins against the gospel. It absolves from the guilt of sin, and shelters from the wrath of God. The distinction of venial and mortal sins has no footing here; no sin but is mortal without it, no sin so venial but needs it. This blood purges not some sort of sins, and leaves the rest to be expiated by a purgatory fire. This expression of the apostle, of all sin, is water enough to quench all the flames of purgatory that Rome has kindled; what sins are not expiated by it are left not to a temporary, but an eternal death; not to a refining, but a consuming fire. So that we see these words are an antidote against fears arising by reason of our infirmities, a cordial against faintings, an encouragement to a holy walk with God. It is a short but a full panegyric of the virtue of the blood of Christ.
1. In regard of the effect of the blood of Jesus: cleansing.
2. In regard of the cause of its efficacy. It is the blood of Jesus, a saviour; the blood of Christ, one appointed, anointed by God to be a Jesus, The Messiah, the "seed of the woman"; the blood of the Son of God, of one in a special relation to the Father, as his only begotten, beloved Son.
3. In regard of the extensiveness of it:
ALL SIN, FROM ADAM UNTIL THE END OF TIME. No guilt so high but it can master, no stain so deep but it can purge; being the blood of the Son of God, and therefore of infinite virtue, it has as much force to demolish mountains of guilt as level mole-hills of iniquity.
The blood of Christ was (1) sacred blood. It was the blood of perfect man - the God Man. (Jn. 1:1,14), the lamb of God (Jn. 1:29). Since Christ alone was perfect God and perfect Man (Phil. 2:5-8), He alone was qualified to give HIS BLOOD AS THE ATONEMENT FOR SIN.
Christ's blood was also (2) SINLESS BLOOD. His blood was like a lamb without spot or blemish (I Pet. 1:18-19). All other human blood has been TAINTED BY THE CORRUPTION OF SIN RESULTING FROM ADAM'S FALL(Rom. 5:12, I Cor. 15:22), but the blood of Christ contained none of the sinful corruption which permeated all other humanity. When Judas Iscariot betrayed the Lord Jesus he knew that he was betraying "INNOCENT BLOOD" (Matt. 27:4).
The consequence of man's sin is both spiritual and physical death (Rom. 6:23; Heb. 9:27). It was through the blood of Adam (man) that original sin was and is transmitted, not the woman (I Tim. 2:14). All human beings, with one exception, are the ultimate product of Adam's sinful seed. CHRIST IS THE ONLY INDIVIDUAL IN SCRIPTURE WHO IS DESIGNATED AS THE SEED OF THE WOMAN(Gen. 3:15). The BLOODLINE THUS RUNS THROUGH THE MALE, NOT THE FEMALE, IN DIVINE REVELATION.
All the blood in the human embryo is formed by itself and solely through the contribution of the male parent (No blood ever passes in the embryo from the mother to child). Our Saviour, however, did not have a human father as progenitor; he was born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14). The blood that flowed in Christ's veins was thus contributed by a Holy God (Matt. 1:22-23), resulting in a "Virgin Birth " and a Saviour with a sinless human nature. Dr. A.W. Pink rightly stated in his commentary that "in becoming man, Christ did not partake of the foul poison which sin has introduced into the human constitution. His humanity was not contaminated by the virus of the fall."
Christ's blood was also (3) SUBSTITUTIONARY BLOOD (II Cor. 5:21; I Pet. 2:24; Isa. 53-5,6), that is, it was offered in our place, in our stead. A substitute is an individual who takes someone's place when they are either unable to appear or unqualified to act.
The blood of Christ was (4) SACRIFICIAL BLOOD (Jn 3:16) for it cost the Father something - it cost Him everything, the sacrifice of His only Begotten Son. At Calvary, God separated Himself from His Son, in order that we might never be separated from Him.
The blood of Jesus was (5) SUFFICIENT BLOOD(Rom. 3:24-25). The Father set forth His Son to be a "PROPITIATION" (satisfaction) for our sins. This blood was shed once for all (Heb. 1:3; 10:12). In the blood sacrifice of Christ, poured out from a sinless nature, the righteous nature and demands of a holy God were perfectly satisfied. At Calvary, righteousness and peace truly kissed each other (Ps. 85:10). The songwriter was never more correct than when he wrote "Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe; sin hath left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow." In view of Christ's sufficient, completed atoning sacrifice through His blood, the repeated sacrifice of the Roman Mass is the depth of religious blasphemy. Christ truly "has redeemed us once for all."
What a blessing to know that Christ's blood is also (6) SHIELDING BLOOD. In Eph. 6:18, the believer is exhorted to take the shield of faith. This shield of faith is the shield in Christ's atoning blood. When Satan brings the skeletons out of our past and accuses the believer concerning his former life, the saint can always successfully plead the blood of his great high priest intercessor (Heb. 7:25). Our Lord thus saves us "completely," even from the insinuations and accusations of our arch-enemy the devil.
On a tragic note, however, Christ's blood is (7) SLIGHTED BLOOD (Heb. 10:28,29). In those verses, the writer clearly indicates that those who reject the blood of the new covenant (testament-agreement) do despite to the "Spirit of Grace." The Holy Spirit is God's divine agent for (a) convicting of sin, (b) convincing of Saviour and (c) converting to salvation (Jn. 16:8-11). When the sinner resists the wooing work of the Holy Spirit, he is thus closing the door of hope on the only means whereby Christ's blood can cleanse and set him free.
III. The Impact Of Christ's Blood
The shed blood of Christ in his death on the cross has tremendous power (impact) and brings to the repentance, believing sinner numerous benefits-blessings, including redemption. (1)The subjects of redemption are sold under sin (Rom. 7:14) and under sentence of death (Rom. 5:12). The purchase price of the sinful "slave" is the blood of Christ who dies in the sinner's stead (Rev. 5:9). (2) Purchased by His blood, believers are never again exposed to sale, being eternally secure (Jn. 10:28-29). (3) (I Pet. 1:18-19). Through Christ's ransom payment, we are forever loosed - set free from sin's power. Thus, the blood "shall never lose its power."
The second impact of the blood of Christ is RIGHTEOUSNESS (Rom. 3:25) "..... through faith in his blood to declare his righteousness..." Through the merit of Christ's blood, the repentant sinner is declared righteous - justified - in Christ (I Cor. 1:30). The same passage (Rom 3:25) also indicates that there is complete remission (forgiveness) of sin (Eph. 1:7), with the slate wiped clear with regard to the believer's eternal position in Christ. This total remission is again based solely upon Christ's blood (Heb. 9:22)
The blood also brings RECONCILIATION - the reuniting of God and man (Col. 1:20-22, Eph. 2:16), a relationship that had been severed by man's sin (Eph. 2:14), plus reception ("accepted in the beloved" - Eph.1:6) - accession to God's presence by the "blood of Jesus" (Heb. 10:19). The final impact of the blood of Christ is the bringing of rejoicing to the believer's heart ("..we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have received the atonement" - Rom. 5:11). The believer can now joyfully sing "Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb."
Conclusion
For those seeking freedom from the burden of sin, there is truly "power in the blood of the Lamb." When asked the question "What can wash away my sin?," the believer can confidently reply, "Nothing but the blood of Jesus," The emperor Napolean once took a map, and pointing to the British Isles stated, "Were it not for the red spot, I would have conquered the world." The blood of Christ does not just mean something to the Christian - it means everything! In view of the Biblical emphasis upon the blood of Christ, the blood of Christ cannot just be merely symbolical in nature.
No Blood-No Remission!!
God bless,
Stever :-D
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Quote:
philologos wrote:
Stever'sQuote:
In conclusion, from what I understand of this matter, Adam was Gods representative on the earth. When he sinned, all were in sin.
That still doesn't explain the transmission. I am still anxious for you to clarify what you think Christ received from Mary. Was Christ of the substance of Mary? and if so how do to persist in your view that Christ's blood was a direct provision from God?
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| | 2006/7/4 18:46 | | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
It (the Church) was NOT purchased with mans blood, but with the very blood of God.
Mary provided the body, that was impregnated by God through the power of the Holy Spirit.
The church was purchased with the blood of a man who was God. God is Spirit and until he became man He could have no blood.
I asked what did Christ receive from Mary. Your answer seems to be that she was simply a surrogate womb. If so, how can Christ come from Judah? Your view of the incarnation begins to sound like something from 'Alien'.
_________________
Ron Bailey
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| | 2006/7/5 4:29 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Acts 20:27-28 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
To attempt to make out from these primitive institutions any nice system, which shall be adapted to modern wants, and conformed to modern ideas, such as pleading the blood, is to mistake altogether the nature of all primitive institutions, which are essentially provisional, extemporaneous, informal, and changeable.ie.--Of God. In all the most ancient copies of the New Testament, and those most to be relied upon for correctness, it reads, "The church of the Lord, which," &c. Which is also past tense, not present tense in the sense of using it for the purpose of getting answered prayer or protection from Satan. These already happened and all we need to do is apply them in our presentation of prayer by faith in whom we pray to, not pleading them before God.
In Christ: Phillip
_________________
Phillip
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| | 2006/7/5 5:17 | Profile |
| | Re: Pleading the blood? | | Hi Stever,
I have not a few problems with your last post, so I'm going to make a few quotes from it, and one or two brief comments, and wait for your reply. (Please note, I may not be online much after now, till Sunday, when I'll be responding to your reply, though I hope to post my praise each evening.)
Quote:
At the beginning, after Adams sin, God required a sinless animal to be sacrificed on an altar,
Please give a scripture reference for this which you state as if it is fact. Thanks.
Quote:
Genesis 4:3-7 that Abels blood sacrifice was acceptable to the Lord, while Cains SACRIFICE OF SOMETHING ELSE was not:
Gensis 4:4 says: "Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering", (NKJV) so where do you get anything about 'blood sacrifice' from that? (Seriously?)
Quote:
395 years when Metuhsaleh was born, 395 years old when Mahaleleel was born
Brother, you need to do this with a good ruler and graph paper, or something similar. Your conclusion of how long before Noah's birth, was Adam's death, is incorrect in this calculation.
Quote:
THE PROPHECY, GIVEN TO THEM BY GOD of the "Seed of the Woman", the Messiah to come, and what was required of them in the meantime- a blood sacrifice, the shedding of blood, of a sinless animal to cover sin until Messiah came.
In answering the previous point (on chapter and verse for a blood sacrifice if you can) this may be partly addressed.
I put it to you that as philologos pointed out, 'seed', technically, is progeny and in Eve's case, her immediate seed were Cain, Abel and Seth.
I also put it to you, that for a time, it may have been that Adam and Eve hoped Cain would be the one to kill the serpent - that is, until he showed his great lack of judgment in offering to God the 'SOMETHING ELSE' which you mention (quoted further above).
The reason that 'something else' was not acceptable to God, was, it was the fruit of the ground. God had formed Adam of the dust of the ground, and He was pleased with His handiwork. Then, when Adam sinned, He cursed the ground. The ground and [u]its fruit[/u] then became a symbol of the [b]lost rest[/b] from work which Adam had achieved for the whole of mankind. This was [i]not[/i] a sweeet smelling sacrifice to God's nostrils, in the face of its context.
In other words, the idea that Adam and Eve knew the Messiah (which means 'anointed' - a foreign concept to them) would not come for thousands of years after them, was not first in their minds - if at all.
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The problem is, some of them beleived, and some didn't.
Seriously, I'm not sure faith, or belief, was the issue which most troubled God in those days. Can you find a scripture reference for it?
You see, in all the references to God speaking to man right up till Moses, there seems to be no question of His presence being overwhelmingly clear to the person with whom He was speaking. The faith that is mentioned, is purely to do with the individual carrying out what God has asked of him, or believing that God would bring to pass the promise God had made to him. It is not about believing into some future Saviour. That person himself, is the focus of God's attention, and usually that person himself is going to be blessed through being obedient to God's calling on his life.
In the cases of Noah, Abraham and Moses, there were other people depending on them, and this pattern continues, as God slowly reveals more and more of the context within which the Saviour [b][i]of the whole world[/i][/b] [u]is[/u] going to appear.
This is as far as I'm going to comment, as these are the main things to which I'd like to hear your responses. |
| | 2006/7/5 16:17 | | lyndon
Member
Joined: 2003/12/8
Posts: 65
Manitoba, Canada
| | Re: Cain and Abel | | Stever's
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Genesis 4:3-7 that Abels blood sacrifice was acceptable to the Lord, while Cains SACRIFICE OF SOMETHING ELSE was not:
and
Dorcas's
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The reason that 'something else' was not acceptable to God, was, it was the fruit of the ground. God had formed Adam of the dust of the ground, and He was pleased with His handiwork. Then, when Adam sinned, He cursed the ground. The ground and its fruit then became a symbol of the lost rest from work which Adam had achieved for the whole of mankind. This was not a sweeet smelling sacrifice to God's nostrils, in the face of its context.
It is my understanding that the reason Abel's sacrifice was better than Cain's is that Abel offered in faith where it seems Cain did not.
eg. Hbr 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Lyndon
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| | 2006/7/5 19:04 | Profile |
| | Re: Pleading the blood? | | lyndon said
Quote:
It is my understanding that the reason Abel's sacrifice was better than Cain's is that Abel offered in faith where it seems Cain did not.
eg. Hbr 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Hi Lyndon,
I'm not disputing the verse in Hebrews about Abel's sacrifice, I was just sharing what the Lord showed me - because I had wanted to know why Cain's sacrifice had been unacceptable to Him.
Picking up on Stever's suggestion that Abel's was a sacrifice for sin, I disagree. I believe it was a service of worship, and that's another reason Cain's was unacceptable and his attitude wrong at a deep level (as later is shown). In a way, offering the fruit of the field in those circumstances, was way over-the-line-cheeky of Cain. His other mistake was to think he could get away with it.
Considering God could have been far harder on him, he was also foolish to miss the opportunity to capitulate and offer a lamb after all. Instead, he acted as if Abel was responsible for his misdemeanour. Later he tried to lie his way out of answering God's question about his brother, and lastly, he did not really lament Abel's death.... the only thing he was worried about subsequently, was his own personal safety.... which was a bit rich under the circumstances.... By then, he had begun to understand something about God's justice, but it was all too late. The grace of God in that situation is amazing, and only makes sense in the light of The Lamb. |
| | 2006/7/5 19:32 | |
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