Poster | Thread | crsschk Member
Joined: 2003/6/11 Posts: 9192 Santa Clara, CA
| Re: | | Quote:
Just a note, this is a almost 4 year old posting.
OH! Does that mean we have to start a new one???
No dear sister, just a mention that's all.
_________________ Mike Balog
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| 2007/5/7 23:52 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT Member
Joined: 2004/3/31 Posts: 901 Melbourne, Australia
| Re: | | Quote:
stantheman wrote: well, if something is not from God, and it's supernatural, chances are it's demonic.
My point is "chances are.." does not equal "I know that..", not even "I think that..". The problem can be often seen is the sense that "nothing can be known", as an explanation of the concept of "mystery". The thing is, when Paul mentions mysteries to the Corinthians, he says that they are knowable by the mind of Christ. In other words, although there may be some unknowns in Scripture, there are also clear statements. Some of these statements need to be ignored in order to justify "Toronto style" phenomena.
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>>3 Yes but i bet God speaks to people at Toronto directly, not just through these earthquakes of falling over etc.
Again, I feel that you missed the point. Here is the passage that I refer to (note the [b]boldened[/b] portions for emphasis):
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[b]11[/b] And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the [b]LORD passed by[/b], and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks [b]before the LORD[/b]; [i]but[/i] the [b]LORD [i]was[/i] not in the wind[/b]: and after the wind an earthquake; [i]but[/i] the [b]LORD was not in the earthquake[/b]: [b]12[/b] And after the earthquake a fire; [i]but[/i] the [b]LORD [i]was[/i] not in the fire[/b]: and after the fire a still small voice. [b]13[/b] And it was [i]so[/i], [b]when Elijah heard[/b] [i]it[/i], that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, [i]there came[/i] a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? [b]1 Ki 19:11-13[/b]
Notice that Elijah recognised the subtle absence of God in the manifestations that occurred [b]before the LORD[/b], and ignored them all, awaiting the familiar voice, which he responded to? These "Toronto style" ministers would no doubt argue, "Look at that. The wind, earthquake and fire must be a sign from God, because they all occurred as He passed by." And yet the Biblical record clearly states that He was not in them. Considering that Elijah is mentioned by name in Malachi's end time comments, symbolically in one of Revelation's two witnesses and by Jesus himself, pointing our attention to John the Baptist (who did no miracle, was the Elijah to come, and was to be "voice crying aloud in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the LORD, making straight paths for his feet"), don't you think that this allusion should be considered?
As you stated earlier, "if something is not from God, and it's supernatural, chances are it's demonic". If this is truly your view, then why are you not open to the consideration that they may not be from God? The Roman Catholic Church was the movement getting all the numbers in the dark age, does that mean we should heed their doctrine? Of course not. In that case, what do you have to support that the "LORD is in" these phenomena, apart from the say-so of these people who have earned your respect by their "great works" (ie, miracles, vast amounts of people would have "said a prayer", in their meetings, etc)?
The sermon that you recommended was full of commercial hype (which Johnson claimed to avoid) and insertions into the plain Biblical record based upon humanistic reasoning. Show me one verse that was taken out of context in the material that I recommended to you (considering that Prasch, in particular in fluent in both Koine Greek and classical Hebrew, having a thorough knowledge of both Church and Hebraic history).
I hope you can see this, Stan. I say this as someone who was where you are (I'm sorry if that sounded arrogant or condescending), until people patiently showed me, in the Word of God, where God spoke against such things, both verbally and typographically. I can remember arguing with someone in my lounge room that he was in danger of "blaspheming the Holy Spirit". For me, one of my earliest moments of realisation that something was wrong with all this, was entering into such a type of forum thread, regarding the phenomena of Gold Dust/Teeth (I watched my wife's teeth had turned gold in a meeting before my eyes). Through some of the comments said, and passages of Scripture referred to, I began to see a little clearer, and cease to try to convince myself and others that there was nothing wrong with such things.
All I ask is that you consider the possibility that you may be wrong. That's all. Toronto would have us ignore our discomfort about these things, in spite of Scripture clearly exhorting us to discern all things. Check it out in Scripture. What's the harm in that? Consider these chilling words, from Art Katz:
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Well, if this is not the lying signs and wonders that we have been warned would characterize the Last Days, then when those lying signs and wonders do come, how will they be substantially different in form and appearance from what is presently taking place? How will we exercise then the discernment that we are incapable of exercising now? The Church needs to be stirred up, saints. We need to be called to maturity. If we are not able to recognize the false prophets now, then how will we recognize the greater deceptions that are to come? There will be wonders. There will be miracles. There will be demonstrations of power. They will be beneficial, but they will be lying signs and wonders. If we are only concerned with the benefit and not all that much with the source, then will we discern it?
God help us... _________________ Aaron Ireland
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| 2007/5/8 1:15 | Profile | rlh Member
Joined: 2007/4/2 Posts: 30 oklahoma
| Re: | | This discussion reminded me of statement by Duncan Campbell -- It is true that we have seen man's best endeaver in the field of evangelism leaving communities untouched. We have seen crowded churches. We have seen many professions. We have seen hundreds, yes, and thousands responding to what you speak of here as the altar call. But I want to say this, dear people, and I say it without fear of contradiction, that you can have all that without God! Now, that may startle you, but I say again, you can have all that on mere human levels and it's supernatural, chances are it's demonic.
_________________ rick H.
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| 2007/5/8 2:07 | Profile | stantheman Member
Joined: 2007/5/1 Posts: 16 Adelaide, Australia
| Re: | | what are you saying? _________________ Stan
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| 2007/5/8 5:04 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT Member
Joined: 2004/3/31 Posts: 901 Melbourne, Australia
| Re: | | Quote:
stantheman wrote: what are you saying?
Good, it's not just me ;-)
_________________ Aaron Ireland
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| 2007/5/8 6:51 | Profile |
| Re: a small correction! | | Quote:
stantheman wrote: LittleGift says that it didn't feel right. I don't think it felt right to a lot of people in the bible. disciples when Jesus was crucified (they wern't for it at any stage) Acts 2 when the disciples got filled with the spirit. A lot of people didn't think that was right. Or when i was introduced to unconditional grace that is lavished on us through the blood of Jesus. I'm still getting my head around that. God doesn't have to feel right, if he felt right to the world, the world would all be christians. Or perception on what feels right is based on our earthly expereince.
I don't remember saying that it didn't feel right! What I experienced that time felt very right and very wonderful. That's the subtlety of it, as I said.
Several years later the Lord showed me it had not been of Him after all.
Blessings
Jeannette
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| 2007/5/10 8:31 | | ginnyrose Member
Joined: 2004/7/7 Posts: 7534 Mississippi
| Re: | | Just sticking my nose in here to let Aaron and rlh know I agree.
Phenomna do not validate any ministry. Meaning: just because miracles are happening does not mean they are from God. Actually, it could it should serve to us as a warning that what we are seeing needs to investigated more deeply. I had a client who was involved in a cult who spoke in tongues. Now my exposure to mass deception was on a different level then what Aaron was sharing on this thread.
Now I wonder, how do these people live where the rubber meets the road? How to they handle annoyances - with anger? How are their marriage relationships? How do they treat their children? An unfavorite dog? (Really! I have heard an evangelist say you can tell whether a man is a Christian by the way he treats his dairy cows - he was talking to a lot of dairymen then. Hey, having milked cows in my youth, he is right on. Why is this so? How do you respond when the cow kicks you? Steps on your foot with only a flimsy sole between it and the concrete? Or when she does not go where you want her to? Listen up, I actually had a dairyman apologize to me one time for the way he mistreated his cows! He had an encounter with the LORD, you see.) While Aaron has made valid points using scripture one should check out their lifestyles in how they cope with aggravations, how they handle business, how they make money.....oftentimes these speak louder then anything else you are hearing...
Interesting thread, brothers!
ginnyrose _________________ Sandra Miller
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| 2007/5/10 9:15 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT Member
Joined: 2004/3/31 Posts: 901 Melbourne, Australia
| Re: | | Quote:
ginnyrose wrote: While Aaron has made valid points using scripture one should check out their lifestyles in how they cope with aggravations, how they handle business, how they make money.....oftentimes these speak louder then anything else you are hearing...
While I do agree with you, at the same time, changed lives are not enough. Contrary to popular opinion, there are many moral people outside of the Kingdom of God, in the sense that that they give to philanthropic causes, are compassionate to people and animals, hoest in their business dealings. Paris Reidhead even cited Albert Schweitzer, in his sermon Ten Shekels and a shirt, describing him as a "brilliant man" who was "utterly consistent" in his philosophy of "reverence for life", even to a cockroach and a microbe.
The point is, it is not "one thing" which we can use as an indicator, but many (dare I say "all"). Lifestyle is important, as is theology, as are demonstrations of faith. The one thing that I look for in a life is whether or not the person has realised the futility of trying to make up for God's "apparent inadequacies". You know what I mean? Like when they read something and say "Oh no. God couldn't have meant that. It's completely out of keeping with His character."
The one thing that we have, to test whether a thing is of God or not, is His Word, period. You may say His Spirit, and that is true, but Jesus said that the Spirit will bring to remembrance his words, and consider that the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy. In other words, the words that He brings to remembrance are every word of Scripture. The Spirit will not speak of Himself. If His Word has testified something to the contrary to what is going on, then question it. Sadly, it seems that there has been much "ignorance" in order to justify these phenomena. _________________ Aaron Ireland
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| 2007/5/10 13:05 | Profile | stantheman Member
Joined: 2007/5/1 Posts: 16 Adelaide, Australia
| Re: | | when they pray in Jesus' name, then they get the genuine work of the Holy Spirit. You can't heal someone or change someones life (ie. addictions etc) with deamonic power if you pray in Jesus name. Not possible. and what's with "it's of God but God's not in it." that is the biggest rubbush i've heard in my entire life. You pray for someone and they get healed and you say "nah, It was of God, but he wasn't in it". there is no in between. it's either of God or of satan. we as people can't work the miraculous. _________________ Stan
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| 2007/5/11 2:15 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT Member
Joined: 2004/3/31 Posts: 901 Melbourne, Australia
| Re: | | Quote:
stantheman wrote: You can't heal someone or change someones life (ie. addictions etc) with deamonic power if you pray in Jesus name. Not possible.
Says who? Considering that the Greek word translated "name" would be better translated "authority", in this day and age, then yes, I agree. But when it is used as a superstitious label tagged onto the end of a prayer, well then I guess these Mormons and JWs are real Christians after all. Oh, and by the way, they testify of documented healings as well.
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and what's with "it's of God but God's not in it." that is the biggest rubbish I've heard in my entire life. You pray for someone and they get healed and you say "nah, It was of God, but he wasn't in it". there is no in between. it's either of God or of satan. we as people can't work the miraculous.
Firstly, did they really get healed? I have personally witnessed many times events where people have responded to these "words of knowledge", been prayed for and healed, only to find when they got home, after they adrenaline wore off, that they weren't really. And the explanation is always, "You lack faith.", or "Your healed, but not manifesting it yet." Now that, sir, is rubbish. I have seen true healings, including true words of knowledge, and this doesn't happen. Interestingly, whenever I have seen this, it has been at the hands of obscure believers, outside of church auditoriums. Not to say that this cannot happen in a church, but this is what I have seen.
One of the worst instances I saw of this "charismatic fraud" (albeit by well meaning ministers, who no doubt believe that what is happening is real, and valid) involved a man with crutches who was asked to put them down, and walk around the church with the "healer", an Australian by the name of John Melor. The man was grimacing in obvious pain as we hobbled out of the church, "healed" [[i]sic[/i]].
Perhaps God is on Bethel, perhaps not. My question is, what is the reason that you won't question this? After all, we are exhorted to test all things.
Regarding being "of God, but God not being in it", consider that God sent a strong delusion to Ahab, via deceiving spirits. But hang on, God does not lie. In other words it was "of God", in the sense that the ideas point of origin was from God, but God was not in it, because a lying spirit is obviously a demonic thing.
My earlier illustration, which you obviously ignored, was God passing by Elijah on the mountain. The terminology used was "but God was not in.." the events that occurred as a result of Him passing by. That fact that it was His "passing by" that caused these events to happen, means that technically they were "of God", but the Scripture clearly states that "God was not in" them. [b]These are not my words, but the words of Scripture. Call it the "biggest rubbish (you've) ever heard", if you want. Just take it up with God, not me[/b].
Apparently, gut feelings and subjective experiences are more important than the Word of God. Sorry, I missed that memo from the Godhead. _________________ Aaron Ireland
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| 2007/5/11 9:11 | Profile |
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