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habakkuk3
Member



Joined: 2005/10/18
Posts: 490
Virginia

 Re:

Here's what John Wesley stated in Sermon 48 entitled "Self Denial." It's a great sermon. It goes along with this death to self.

Here's a paragraph defining self-denial from this sermon.

But what is self-denial? Wherein are we to deny ourselves? And whence does the necessity of this arise? I answer, [b]The will of God is the supreme, unalterable rule for every intelligent creature; equally binding every angel in heaven, and every man upon earth.[/b] Nor can it be otherwise: This is the natural, necessary result of the relation between creatures and their Creator. But if the will of God be our one rule of action in every thing, great and small, it follows, by undeniable consequence, that we are not to do our own will in anything. Here, therefore, we see at once the nature, with the ground and reason, of self-denial. [b]We see the nature of self-denial: It is the denying or refusing to follow our own will, from a conviction that the will of God is the only rule of action to us. And we see the reason thereof, because we are creatures; because "it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves."[/b]


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2006/6/21 16:06Profile









 Re:

Put legs on that, Hab. You will find that denying self has more to do with denying our emotions than anything else. Not seeing it in this light is why people don't "get it" and think it has to do with denying ourselves of material goods/pleasures..While that may be true in some cases, overall it has to do with denying the natural affections/inclinations of the body/soul.

My claim to my rights, says Oswald Chambers.

8-)rm

 2006/6/21 16:14
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

Watchman Nee's works for the most part, seem quite brilliant, but I'm having reservation towards those who completely devote themselves into following Nee's doctrine rather than the written WORD. The over emphasis of self denial has somewhat brought forth a sort of hyper-spiritualism, or rather mysticism.

I recently met a fairly new believer, who devotes much time in studying Watchman Nee's books, he doesn't seem interested in the bible and has replaced it with Watchman Nee's doctrine. As a result, he has trouble agreeing with the many other Christians because he thinks that Christians must have no self !! To the point where he thinks that even a manifestation of emotional love for Christ, is falsehood and sinful.

Paul teaches the two-natured man in believers. No doubt, after conversion, we are to mortify sins, to deny fleshly lusts, but to think for one to completely demolish the reality of self on earth, that's unrealistic, if not impossible.

We are commanded to love God and to love one another, and to love, it involves self, that self in CHRIST, and our love is borrowed from God's love, but still self has to be involved.

hm, this Christian I met confuses me greatly...

When someone is obsessed in trying to deny self in the flesh, isn't he already entangling with self?

I know it's necessary for us to deny the old and sinful self...

Any thoughts out there? I would love to hear from someone who's familiar with Nee's works.








 2006/6/21 18:01Profile









 Re:

In capsule form self is found-bound in the soul that must be purified while the spirit is addressed by the Holy Spirit. When guidance is needed the Spirit gives it though our spirit that we obey with our soul. In this are we rectified, if we obey.

1 Peter 1:22 (KJV)
[i]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit ......"[/i]

The bigger question is, why do we do this? Why are we to do it? For what reason are we to be rectified?



:-)rm

 2006/6/21 18:24
habakkuk3
Member



Joined: 2005/10/18
Posts: 490
Virginia

 Re:

Okay Ormly my friend,

I won't rely on Wesley but for the sake of brevity I copied a pertinent part of his sermon entitled "self-denial." Most of his sermons were brief (20 minutes or so) but substantive and not complicated.

I'll try to articulate what I'm hearing in the Spirit and seeing in the word of God.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. The word "deny" here means to deny utterly or to the utmost. Given your kinship with Brother Oswald, I'm sure this is quite clear.

I like the way that Thayer defined the word deny as "to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone." In other words, it's the complete laying down of my life. There's no longer a connection to any rights. I've laid down everything at the cross.

It's a real denial of self (i.e. an unequivocal denial of self). I believe it's much more than an emotional experience but there comes a point once everything is given over where there is no distinction between "my" life and Christ's life, because I fully belong to Him. This is what I'm pressing into the Lord for in my own life.

So what I've experienced is that the Holy Spirit will question me about something during a period of prayer. Here's an example of one area the Lord has been dealing with me on, is the area of "time" and I heard "Can I have your time?"

I said yes Lord, rather foolishly and the Lord immediately began to test me on this by waking me up at all times of the night to pray. The Holy Spirit has been faithful to wake me up to pray, unless I'm in some type of rebellion.

Whenever I failed to get up, the first question I heard during prayer was "Is it my time or your time?" God's memory is perfect.

God can only use an emptied vessel and I can testify that this "emptying out" is a painful process. It's painful only in the sense that there is resistance in my heart and my insistence on having "my time" my whatever the Lord has laid His hand upon.

It's readily apparent to me that the biggest obstacle we must get past is ourselves. Although the devil is a liar and a thief, he cannot compel us to do anything against our will.

I pray this rambling makes some sense. The real concern I have in the body of Christ is that the idea of self-denial has become to many the self-denial. Know that once something is laid upon the altar, God has the right to consume it even if it's my beloved "Isaac."

As to Watchman Nee, I've heard some good comments about him but haven't read much on him. I think the focus should be on the Bible and in prayer but I find it fascinating how the Lord has dealt with others and that's one of the reasons I enjoy reading about others.


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2006/6/21 20:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:

habakkuk3 wrote:
Okay Ormly my friend,

I won't rely on Wesley but for the sake of brevity I copied a pertinent part of his sermon entitled "self-denial." Most of his sermons were brief (20 minutes or so) but substantive and not complicated.

I'll try to articulate what I'm hearing in the Spirit and seeing in the word of God.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. The word "deny" here means to deny utterly or to the utmost. Given your kinship with Brother Oswald, I'm sure this is quite clear.

I like the way that Thayer defined the word deny as "to affirm that one has no acquaintance or connection with someone." In other words, it's the complete laying down of my life. There's no longer a connection to any rights. I've laid down everything at the cross.

It's a real denial of self (i.e. an unequivocal denial of self). I believe it's much more than an emotional experience but there comes a point once everything is given over where there is no distinction between "my" life and Christ's life, because I fully belong to Him. This is what I'm pressing into the Lord for in my own life.

So what I've experienced is that the Holy Spirit will question me about something during a period of prayer. Here's an example of one area the Lord has been dealing with me on, is the area of "time" and I heard "Can I have your time?"

I said yes Lord, rather foolishly and the Lord immediately began to test me on this by waking me up at all times of the night to pray. The Holy Spirit has been faithful to wake me up to pray, unless I'm in some type of rebellion.

Whenever I failed to get up, the first question I heard during prayer was "Is it my time or your time?" God's memory is perfect.

God can only use an emptied vessel and I can testify that this "emptying out" is a painful process. It's painful only in the sense that there is resistance in my heart and my insistence on having "my time" my whatever the Lord has laid His hand upon.

It's readily apparent to me that the biggest obstacle we must get past is ourselves. Although the devil is a liar and a thief, he cannot compel us to do anything against our will.

I pray this rambling makes some sense. The real concern I have in the body of Christ is that the idea of self-denial has become to many the self-denial. Know that once something is laid upon the altar, God has the right to consume it even if it's my beloved "Isaac."

As to Watchman Nee, I've heard some good comments about him but haven't read much on him. I think the focus should be on the Bible and in prayer but I find it fascinating how the Lord has dealt with others and that's one of the reasons I enjoy reading about others.



I hear you my brother, and its all good but you missed what I said in brevity by using the word "emotions".
Let me ask, have you ever been crossed, offended? How about your disposition at the traffic light when in a hurry and the little old lady in the front of you can't make up her mind to make the left turn when there is plenty openning for her to proceed? What thoughts is your mind generating? Believe or not, this the real time of testing when self denial is the issue. Master it in these instances and we master much not necessarily having to do with self denial.

Blessings,

8-)rm

 2006/6/21 21:01
habakkuk3
Member



Joined: 2005/10/18
Posts: 490
Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
I hear you my brother, and its all good but you missed what I said in brevity by using the word "emotions".

You're absolutely right brother I missed it entirely. My apologies.

Does the Lord God test his children in these small things as in the case of the little old lady you described. Yes, absolutely and thank God He does. He continues to do it until we're crying out for Him to finish the work.

Here's a wonderful old hymn I read this morning written by a man named Theodore Monod and it's entitled "The Altered Motto." As you can see, it's a progressive walk and the cry of my heart is "None of self and all of Thee." Isn't it amazing that God can take a proud heart and change that heart of stone into a soft heart that is willing and earnestly seeking all of Jesus? What an awesome God we serve!

Blessings to you brother. I pray this hymn blesses your heart today.

Oh, the bitter shame and sorrow,
That a time could ever be
When I let the Saviour's pity
Plead in vain, and [i]proudly[/i] answered,
[b]"All of self, and none of thee!"[/b]

Yet He found me; I beheld Him
Bleeding on the accursed tree;
Heard Him pray, "Forgive them, Father!"
[b]"Some of self and some of Thee."[/b]

Day by day His tender mercy,
Healing, helping, full and free
Sweet and strong, and ah! so patient,
[i]Brought me lower, while I whispered[/i],
[b]"Less of self, and more of Thee."[/b]

Higher than the highest heavens,
Deeper than the deepest sea,
[u][b]Lord, Thy love at last hath conquered;[/u][/b]
[i]Grant me now my soul's desire[/i],
[b]"None of self and all of Thee."[/b]


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2006/6/22 7:42Profile
irunbarefoot
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 35


 Re:

I just thought that I'd comment, since God has been showing me a bunch of stuff on this topic lately. It has been so wonderful going through the hurt and pain that accompanies the death of self.

The way I hae see it, the very gateway to knowing the Father deeper is found in dying to yourself. There is no way to follow him at all without first letting go of all of wants, dreams, and ambitions. It's like we are all born with this insticnt that tells us that we "need" to matter in this world, when Jesus is telling us that we don't need to matter at all. I am convinced that no one can even know Jesus unless he first lets go of self, after all isn't that part of repentance?

Just my 0.02
-Sean

 2006/6/22 13:39Profile
habakkuk3
Member



Joined: 2005/10/18
Posts: 490
Virginia

 Re:

Quote:
It has been so wonderful going through the hurt and pain that accompanies the death of self.

Amen! It seems it should be incongruent but it's oh so true. I reminded of this verse: I Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
Quote:
There is no way to follow him at all without first letting go of all of wants, dreams, and ambitions.

I totally agree. The Bible clearly makes a distinction between our actions and our ways (Reform your ways and your actions (or doings as stated in the KVJ) is mentioned in Jeremiah four times.) All of the self-life regarding both things has to be purged.

When we begin to follow Jesus, the scales begin to be lifted from our eyes and we see the inner rebellion, which consists primarily of our ways (or habits). This is ultimately what has to be laid down. The actions seem to come first and the ways, which are the reasons behind the actions. Hope that makes some sense.

I describe it as painful and glorious all at the same time and people look at me somewhat strangely but that's what I'm finding out along this journey. When I earnestly began seeking Jesus some five years ago, the New Age self-help books simply became the Christian self-help books and the messages were quite similar and a couple of passages were twisted to support the author's contentions.

I'm so glad this life is not about the self and that we don't have to be on this treadmill of self-help. It's all so legalistic and there's no joy. But dying to self and surrendering to Jesus, there is great joy amidst the crushing. Praise God is not about anybody other than Jesus because if it was, we surely would be building a monument to them (or ourselves) in much the same way that Saul did.

Blessings to you brother.


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2006/6/22 14:17Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re:

post deleted by post-er

 2006/6/22 15:27Profile





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