| Poster | Thread | Christinyou
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| | Re: | | There is a course of conduct which will drive that Spirit from the mind as if he were grieved and pained--as a course of ingratitude and sin would pain the heart of an earthly friend, and cause him to leave you." If asked what that conduct is, we may reply,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(1.) Open and gross sins. They are particularly referred to here; and the meaning of Paul is, that theft, falsehood, anger, and kindred vices, would grieve the Holy Spirit, and cause Him to depart.
(2.) Anger, in all its forms. Nothing is more fitted to drive away all serious and tender impressions from the mind than the indulgence of anger.
(3.) Licentious thoughts and desires. The Spirit of God is pure, and He dwells not in a soul that is filled with corrupt imaginings.
(4.) Ingratitude. We feel ingratitude more than almost anything else; and why should we suppose that the Holy Spirit would not feel it also?
(5.) Neglect. The Spirit of God is grieved by that. Often He prompts us to pray; he disposes the mind to seriousness, to the perusal of the Bible, to tenderness and penitence. We neglect those favoured moments of our piety, and lose those happy seasons for becoming like God.
(6.) Resistance. Christians often resist the Holy Ghost. He would lead them to be dead to the world; yet they drive on their plans of gain. He would teach them the folly of fashion and vanity; yet they deck themselves in the gayest apparel. He would keep them from the splendid party, the theatre, and the ballroom; yet they go there. All that is needful for a Christian to do, in order to be eminent in piety, is to yield to the gentle influences which would draw him to prayer and to heaven.
Christians are said to be sealed; to be sealed by the Holy Spirit, Eph 1:13; 4:30; that is, the Holy Spirit is given to them to confirm them as belonging to God. He grants them his Spirit. He renews and sanctifies them. He produces in their hearts those feelings, hopes, and desires which are an evidence that they are approved by God; that they are regarded as his adopted children; and through birth His son's and daughters, legal and by birthright, that their hope is genuine; and that their redemption and salvation are SURE--in the same way as a seal makes a will or an agreement sure. God grants to them His Holy Spirit as the certain pledge that they are His, and shall be approved and saved in the rapture, on resurrection morning, there for comfort one another with these things. In this there is nothing miraculous, or in the nature of direct revelation. It consists of the ordinary operations of the Spirit on the heart, producing repentance, faith, hope, joy, conformity to God, the love of prayer and praise, and the Christian virtues generally; and these things are the evidences that the Holy Spirit has renewed the heart, and that the Christian is sealed for the day of redemption of the body. For we are already redeemed in Spirit and being redeemed in soul.
In Christ: Phillip
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|  2006/6/5 14:08 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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| | Re: The down payment | | Romans 8:10,11
"But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of rightousness.
"And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.'
2 Cor. 3:18 "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit"
2 Thess 2:14 "To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
A downpayment is a small and initial portion of the full sum. The full sum is the fullness of the initial portion.
The Holy Spirit is a down payment of our inheritance. But what is our inheritance? A mansion in heaven?
Our inheritance is Christ Himself. He is the good land of which we have all recieved our alloted portion (Colossians 1:12) and He is our inheritance. And the issue of this inheritance is glory.
Galatians tells us that the Promise of the Spirit is the blessing of Abraham.
In the New Testament, the Spirit is called, "the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Holiness, the Life giving Spirit, the Spirit of Life, and in Galatians He is just called, "The Spirit".
WE need to see that as a "downpayment' or "foretaste" He is the foretaste of the complete reality to come.
What is this reality?
In regeneration our spirit is made alive (Romans 8 The spirit is life because of rightousness). And today as members of His body, our soul is being renewed and transformed and conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God by the Spirit who indells us (Romans 8:29, 2 Cor. 3).
When the Lord returns, our mortal bodies will also be transfigured and glorified, by the same Spirit who raised up Jesus Christ from the dead (Romans 8:11).
The Spirit is the executor of all the riches of Christ. Today He regenerates our dead spirit, indwells us, and he grows in us, renewing us and transforming us, and ultimatly will transfigure our bodies and we shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is.
The Spirit is the gift of God. The Spirit is the blessing of God. The Spirit is everything God has for us today and in the future. It is by this indwelling Spirit that we are being conformed to the imgae of the Firstborn Son of God, It is by this indwelling Spirit we cry "Abba Father", it is by this indwelling Spirit we partake of and particapate in all Christ is and all Christ has acomplished. And it is by this inwelling Spirit our mortal bodies will be transfigured into the Likeness of the Firstborn Son of God.
The Spirit is everything in the New Testament. He is the Spirit of Jesus Christ and brings into us all Christ is and all Christ has accomplished and will conform us to His image and will transfigure our mortal bodies.
It is not that God has given us this and that and promises this and that and oh by the way, He has given us the Spirit as a down payment of these things to garentee us that one day we will recieve them. That is, as though one day we will present this deposit and turn it in to recieve the other things.
Rather the Spirit we have today as a downpayment will Himself be our full inheritance also. THe Spirit brings Christ into us and Christ brings the Father into us and the Spirit baptises us into Christ and Christ brings us into the Father.
Everything of God is in Christ and everything of Christ is in this Spirit. Everything we have of Christ today is in this Spirit and everthing we will have tomorrow is in this same Spirit.
Our destiny and our inheritance is glory. The glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. Whose glory? The glory of the Lord Jesus Christ. And how is this glory manifested? By His Spirit within us who will conform us to the image of His glory when He shall come to be glorified in His saints to be marveled at. It is "Christ in us, the hope of Glory".
THe glory we are destined to obtain is the glory of the Lord JEsus Christ which will be manifested from within us at His comming, transfiguring us into His likeness. Every blessing of God we enjoy today and that we are destined to obtain is through this indwelling Spirit. That is, from the Father, through the Son and by the Spirit.
Graftedbranch
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| | 2006/6/11 7:51 | Profile | Christinyou
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| | Re: | | Quote, by Jeff
"""""In the New Testament, the Spirit is called, "the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, the Spirit of Holiness, the Life giving Spirit, the Spirit of Life, and in Galatians He is just called, "The Spirit"."""""
This is so. But the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit.
Did the Holy Spirit die one the Cross, Did the Father die on the Cross?
Jesus said, "It is finished", what is finished? That Christ and His death, would give us, Life. Who's, "it is finished," Life? Christ Life. Who sealed us and who are we sealed into?
Sealed into Christ, by the Holy Spirit Who did the sealing, Not sealing Himself the Holy Spirit in us as Life, but Christ as Life and the Holy Spirit as the Sealer and Teacher and motivating power and Revealer of the Life of Christ that is sealed in us.
Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for Him hath God the Father sealed. Not the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of My hand. Not even the Holy Spirit.
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Jesus is the Prince of Life. Not the Holy Spirit. And on and on and on it goes. Christ is our Life, The Holy Spirit is the Revealer of that Life.
Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given Him. Not the Holy Spirit.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Any time the statement of the of life is given it is accomplished by Christ, not the Holy Spirit. "It is finished" You cannot make the Spirit of Life which is Christ the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is always revealing the Life of Christ to the believer and is the power of the Mind of Christ by the revelation of the Life and Mind of Christ that is already in the believer.
We will have the Holy Spirit in us forever and He will always be revealing God the Father to us throughout all eternity.
2Cr 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
The dying and the Life are always there in the believer, "We have been baptized into His death", in our conversion because we believed. The manifestation of this truth is the responsibility of the revealing of the Holy Spirit. What Christ has done is finished, The Holy Spirit is the revealer of this finished work in us.
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
It is not Jesus Christ that is teaching us, it is the Holy Spirit that is teaching us the things of Christ. The Holy Spirit not being the Spirit of Christ.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Who is sending the Holy Spirit? It is Christ, from the Father. He, The Holy Spirit is the Only Revealer of Truth when it comes to the things of Jesus Christ.
WE cannot mix the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and God the Father, they have three individual Jobs and mixing them only weakens all Three. They are One in Union and in being the One God, because when all is done all will be returned to God the Father and He will be and is our All in All.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Then Shall the Son to the Glory He had with the Father before the foundation of the world.
Then still we have the Seed of the Father by the Holy Spirit delivered just like it was in Mary and brought forth a Son and also us as son's.
In Christ: Phillip
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| | 2006/6/11 21:03 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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| | Re: | | Quote:
This is so. But the Spirit of Christ is not the Holy Spirit.
I must say that this statement is false.
In Romans 8:9 Paul says: "But you are not in the flesh but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet, if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.
In this verse the Apostle identifies the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ. They are one and the same.
How many spirits are there?. Do we recieve 2 spirits when we believe? Is the Spirit of Christ a different Spirit from the Spirit of God? No. Of course not. There are not two spirits but one.
The Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Life, the Life Giving Spirit, the Spirit of Holiness, are all one and the Same Spirit.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are not 4 in the Godhead, only three. The Spirit of Christ is not another Spirit.
Ephesians tells us there is one Body, one Spirit, One Lord Jesus Christ, one faith, one baptisism, one God and Father who is over all, through all and in all.
There is only one Spirit. Not two. Not many.
We have our human spirit and the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.
But God has only one Spirit. And this Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. They are one and the Same Spirit.
The Spirit in the New Testament is the Spirit of Christ. And in this Spirit is all that Christ is as the embodiment of the Father. In this Spirit is the Son and the Father.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are eternally distinct but not separate. They are one God. And they eternally coinhere. The FAther is in the Son and the Son is in the Spirit. They are distinct but not separate.
This is the orthodox and biblical revelation of the Trinity. Eternally distinct but not separate.
The Father is the fountian, the son is the Spring and the Spirit is the river of the water of Life. And they are one God, not three.
2 Corinthians 3 tells us, "the Lord is the Spirit". This Lord is the Lord Jesus Christ in the context. And this Lord Jesus Christ in resurrection is the Spirit who indwells us.
IN 1 Cor 15:45 it says, "the last Adam became a Life giving Spirit." That is, In resurrection, Christ is now imparted into us as the Spirit. The Spirit we recieve when we beieve is not separate from Christ. He is Christ. Christ in you, the hope of Glory.
And this Christ is the embodiment of the Triune God. In Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily. Christ is the embodiment of God and the Spirit as the Spirit of Christ is the consumation of the TRiune God in becomeing flesh, crucifixion and resurrection.
The Spirit in the New Testament is all inclusive of God, of Christ as a man, of all He has undergone and all He has accomplished.
this One Spirit is all inclusive.
As Andrew Murray says in "the Spirit of Christ"
"When Christ had entered with our human nature, in our flesh, into the Holiest of all, there took place that of which Peter speaks, 'Being by the right hand of God exalted, He received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost.'In our place, and on our behalf, as man and the Head of man, He was admitted into the full glory of the Divine, and His human nature constituted the receptacle and the dispenser of the Divine Spirit. And the Holy Spirit could come down as the Spirit of the God-man --most really the Spirit of God, and yet as truly the spirit of man.He could come down as the Spirit of the glorified Jesus to be in each one who believes in Jesus, the Spirit of His personal life and His personal presence, and at the same time the spirit of the personal life of the believer. Just as in Jesus the perfect union of God and man had been effected and finally completed when He sat down upon the throne, and He so entered on a new, stage of existence, a glory hitherto unknown, so too, now, a new era has commenced in the life and the work of the Spirit.He can now come down to witness of the perfect union of the Divine and the human, and in becoming our life, to make us partakers of it. There is now the Spirit of the glorified Jesus: He hath poured Him forth; we have received Him to stream into us, to stream through us, and to stream forth from us in rivers of blessing."
When we beleive into Christ we recieve one Spirit as Paul says, 'you were all baptised into One Spirit and given to drink of one Spirit. And this Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Jesus Christ. He is one Spirit and in Him is everything. He is the Triune God, incarnated, crucified and resurrected, indwelling us.
There are many aspects of this One Spirit. And we experience all these different aspects as we grow in Him and as we apprehend him. But He is one Spirit and in Him is everything.
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| | 2006/6/11 22:10 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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| | Re: | | Quote:
Did the Holy Spirit die one the Cross, Did the Father die on the Cross?
Christ as a man died on the cross. Christ is the embodiment of the Triune God. He is the incarnated Son of God with the Father and by the Spirit.
In Christ was the Father. The father was in Him. Jesus said, "the Fahter who abides in Me, He does His works.
And the Son lived and worked by the Spirit. "If I by the Spirit do cast out demons, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you.
The Son is the embodiment of God. He is God manifested in the flesh.
Christ died on the Cross in His humanity. He did not die in His eternal nature as God. He died as a man. And in His eternal nature as God He is one with the Father and the Spirit.
God did not die on the cross as God. The eternal God was incarnated into humanity in Christ. He lived a human life and he died as a men on the cross. He died on the cross as a man. It was a human death He experienced as a man. But in His divine nature He did not die, not as the son, and not as the Father and not as the Spirit. But the Father, the Son and the Spirit experienced death on the cross in Christ's humanity.
As Hebrews tells us it was by the power of an unending Life that He was raised from the dead. It was according to the Spirit of Holiness. It was because of His eternal divine nature that he was raised from the dead. His divine nature did not die. He died in His humanity as a man.
And it was this Divine nature, His divinity that raised Him from the dead.
Did the Father die on the Cross? Did the Spirit die on the Cross? Did the Son die on the cross?
Yes and no. Christ died on the Cross as the embodiment of God. And He died as a man in His humanity. God cannot die but man can die. And God died in Christ as a man, but not as God.
This is biblical. This is orthodoxy.
Graftedbranch |
| | 2006/6/11 22:50 | Profile | Christinyou
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| | Re: | | Hi Jeff,
You can make the God Head One in Spirit, for they are all the Spirit of God. If They as God do not have different equations in Their work to be accomplished on this earth, then God is doing something against His Nature. God must in our finite minds teach us Who He is, and in doing this He has chosen three natures in Himself to reveal to us. God the Father who cannot be a Father without giving birth to a Son, This is how God has chosen a Father to be a Father. So it is Plain He wanted to be a Father and He wanted son's in His House. He could not get them by creation. Nothing created is the total of the one creating his creation. I cannot create a car and it be of me, I can give it all the attributes of myself by putting a created program in the computer and tell it what to do and it possibly would do what I gave it orders to do, but not likely, maybe one of billions, names Enoch. If I gave it a choice to do what it wanted, It would make a wrong decision at some point and kill itself. Just like Adam did. The only way I could give it my decisions is to put myself in the computer and it would have the Spirit of me in the car. Then I would have to give it my Spirit to teach it how to understand my Spirit. Do you see where this is going? We must keep the Spirit of Christ and the Teacher Spirit from God separate, even though They are together One God. God dealing as the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit in Himself can keep this total of Who He has chosen to reveal Himself to us, He can keep it just fine and perfect as One God. Now that He is dealing with A created being that now has His Seed in them, He must keep The Spirit of Christ as Life and the Holy Spirit as teacher separate, or all would be so confused no one would be able to keep anything straight. When all things are subdued under Christ's Feet, and the Kingdom is returned to the Father as One God, no longer needing three Person's to deal with His creation, then we will know Him as we are known and coming to know Him Now by the Son in us and the Holy Spirit teaching us who this Son is in the Godhead. Some day we will be One with the Father Just like Christ is with the Father which Christ prayed we would know and even now know and we will be one even as we are now, One complete and then in the Spirit of God will be One also, as Christ is One with Him, for The Holy Spirit, He also is baptized into us. But now we Need to keep them straight for Who They are and What our body soul and spirit is doing and will be doing in the Father's House. You have a wonderful knowledge of Who God is, But He knows Who He is also and He knows best how to keep us on the right track when He is dealing with us, Or Christ would not have had to go to the Cross, And the Father would not have had to turn His back on Him when He was crucified, and the Holy Spirit would not be teaching us who this Christ that died and is birthed in us is, that we might be called the son's of God. 1 John 3:1-3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see Him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.
If we don't keep the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit separated in The Work of God this scripture would be so mixed up we could never understand it. Who is Him, He the pure One, Jesus Christ. Or we would be not son's of God but gods of god.
In Christ: Phillip
In Christ: Phillip
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| | 2006/6/12 1:42 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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| | Re: | | Nicene Creed:
"I believe in one God the Father Almighty; Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; he suffered and was buried; and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father..."
The Athenasian Creed:
"And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated, nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord...
...For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. God, of the Essence of the Father, begotten before the worlds, and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God, and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by assumption of the Manhood into God."
The Trinity is a mystery. Human language is deficient in expressing this mystery and the human mind is deficient in comprehending this mystery.
But, we must take the revelation of this mystery as it stands in the Bible.
Theology divides the topic into the Essential Trinity and the economical Trinity. That is, the essential Trinity refers to God's eternal being as the Triune God. The economical Trinity is God's operation in time interacting with His creation for the purpose of carrying out His Eternal Purpose and Will.
The relationship of Father and Son did not begin with the incarnation of Christ. Christ as the Eternal Word was in the beginning with God and was God. The same was in the beginning with God and all things came into being through Him. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory of the only begotton from the Father...
Christ as the Eternal Son has ever existed in the relationship of Son to the Father having His Source in the Father and eternally proceeding from the Father. And the Spirit Likewise eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son.
In God's relationship to His Creation, the Father originates, the Son accomplishes, and the Spirit applies. This is the eternal distinction and the eternal operation of the Triune God.
And yet we also have to see that though the Father sent the Son, the Father was also in the Son as Jesus said in John 14 10:
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you, I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me, He does His works" and "He who has seen Me has seen the Father."
He then said, "I am going to the Father".
In vs. 16 he speaks of "Another Comforter" who would not come unless Jesus went away. But then in vs 18 He identifies the Comforter with Himself saying "I will not leave you as orphans, I am comming to you'.
Then in vs 23 Jesus said:
"if anyone loves Me he will keep My Word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him.
And in vs. 20 the Lord said, "In that day (His resurrection, when the Spirit comes) you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me and I in you."
And so in John 14 we have all these aspects of the Divine Mystery. Jesus is going to the Father, but the Father is in Him. He is sending "another comforeter" and "I will not leave you as orphans but I am comming to you.
Who is comming' the Holy Spirit or Christ? Who indwells us, The Holy Spirit, Christ, or the Father? According to John 14 all three. And yet, all of these are "Another Comforter" who cannot come except Christ go away (to the Cross) and return in resurrection as the Life Giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45).
So in John 14 we see that the Father is in Christ and the Spirit brings Christ into us. And so in this one Spirit, this one Comforter, we have the Father and the Son and the Spirit.
In that day, when the comforter comes, you will know that I am in My Father and you are in Me and I am in you. The Spirit brings us into this realtiy and makes this reality known to us in our consciousness and in our experience.
The Spirit brings the Son into us and in the Son the Father. And the Spirit also unites us with the Son who is also in the Father. And therefore the place the Lord went away to prepare for us that we might be with Him where He is, through crucifixion and resurrection, is in the Father.
On the one hand, the Father was in heaven and Christ was going to Him. ON the other hand the Father was in Christ.
Also on the one hand Christ in His resurrected body is in the heavens at the right hand of God. ON the other Hand Christ is within us as the Life Giving Spirit.
And so the Father, the Son, and the Spirit eternally exist in their distinctions, but they eternally coinhere mutually indwelling one another. And they cannot be separated. If you have One, you have the other two. And they share one unique LIfe, nature, and essence and they are One God, not three.
This is a mystery but it is the revealtion of the Bible. And we must set aside our natural concepts and recieve the pure revelation of the Bible.
Graftedbranch
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| | 2006/6/12 9:26 | Profile | KingJimmy
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| | Re: Romans 8:1 | | I have been wondering about Romans 8:1 lately as well, as I noticed variations to this text.
There are actually three variations in the Greek manuscripts to 8:1
1) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
2) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh.
3) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but the Spirit.
So far as I've been able to see, translations have chosen either option 1 or 3.
Quote:
What reasons could you have for "adding" the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' to Romans 8:1?
And what reasons could you have for removing the line 'who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.' from Romans 8:1?
I can't see why someone would add that last line for the life of me! But knowing the wickedness of the carnal human heart, I can see plenty of reason(s) to remove that last line!
Don't think of everything as some big conspiracy. If that's all you look at textual criticism as, then you are going to be a poor textual critic. Instead, we need to look to the evidence at hand instead of just whipping out some wild speculation as to why some evil person might have taken away or added to the text.
Manuscript Evidence (major witnesses)
-------------
Note: (latter correction) = same manuscripts e.g. D, where later addition was made to the manuscript.
(Variant 1) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
Primary-Alexandrian: 4th century uncial;
Secondary-Alexandrian: 5th century uncial; 14th century minuscule; 14th century minuscule;
Western: 5th century uncial;
Byzantine:
Other Important: 11th century minuscule;
Church Fathers: Marcion, Origen, Athanasius, Diodore, Didymus, Cyril, Ambrosiaster Augustine.
Foreign translations: Old Latin, Coptic, Arminian, Gregorian
(variant 2) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh.
Primary Alexandrian: 5th century uncial;
Secondary-Alexandrian: 11th century;
Western: 6th century uncial (later correction);
Byzantine:
Other Important: 9th/10th century uncial;
Church Fathers: Chrysostom; Victorinus-Rome, Jerome, Pelagius Speculum.
Foreign translations: Old Latin, Vulgate, Syriac, Arminian.
(variant 3) There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but the Spirit.
Primary Alexandrian: 4th century uncial (later correction)
Secondary Alexandrian: 9th century minuscule; 11th century minuscule; 10th century minuscule;
Western: 5th century uncial (later correction);
Byzantine: 7th century minuscule; 9th century uncial; 9th century uncial; 6th century uncial;
Other Important: 9th century minuscule;
Church Fathers: Cyril
Foreign Translations: Lectionaries, Old Latin, Syriac, Gregorian, Slavic.
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To summarize, the external evidence has the strongest support in variant 1. It's strongest support comes from early Alexandrian and Western texts, and is well attested in other writings, as well as translations. Variant 2 also has decent support in the Alexandrian tradition, as well as in other foreign translations. Variant 3 has the weakest support. Even though it has early support in the Alexandrian and Western text types, these are later additions to early texts by a later copyist. Otherwise, evidence for variant 3 is almost entirely confined to later Byzantine texts, though with some support by foreign translation and next to no support by church fathers.
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Internal Evidence: Is there any explination as to how variants 2 and 3 might have been added? It is likely that a copyist at some point accidentally introduced this error by a slip of the eye, copying from Romans 8:4 the same phrase, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
Theologically, the passage has the same meaning regardless of which variant one accepts as geniune. For the "us" of 8:4 is simply further elaborating on describing those who are in Christ Jesus from 8:1. The Christian, who walks after the Spirit and not the flesh, is under no condemnation in Christ Jesus. At best if either of the variants of 8:1 are geniune, they only add further emphasis to a passage that is rather clear even without it.
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Conclusion: External and internal evidence strongly favor variant 1. Externally variant 1 has the earliest and widest support, and internally variants 2 & 3 can simply be explained as a mistaken copyist error, in which the passage retains the same meaning regardless (thus, no reason for absurd conspiracy theories that ignore the actual evidence).
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Jimmy H
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| | 2006/6/12 12:38 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | It is always difficult in joining a discussion later on. Do we tag onto the end or take the conversation back to the beginning. If we take it back to the beginning we risk repeating what others have already said. My pattern has been a quick scan and then trying to decide where to begin a contribution. My apologies if my 'quick scan' missed things which would have made this contribution unnecessary.
Compton's Quote:
I feel scripture teaches that being born again is a transformation of our character and will through an inward death, a baptism into the Holy Spirit, and a resurrection into the person of Jesus Christ, who is Gods Word.
This I like very much as long as we are talking about reality of spiritual experience and not logical deductions drawn from proof texts.
Compton's Quote:
So, according to Christ himself, all men are already condemned. The verdict has been handed down that men are guilty of loving darkenss more then light. Sometimes we argue over the doctrine of "original sin" but none of us can dispute the unavoidable reality of original condemnation. Every person alive is born into this total and complete condemnation untill
whosoever believeth in Jesus should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This one I would need to examine more clearly. Is all condemnation the same condemnation ie does every crime receive the exact same irrespective of the crime?
The word used in Romans 8:1 for 'condemnation' is katakrima and its associated verb is katakrinO. The words are used in Matt 12:41-42; 20:18; 27:3; Mark 10:33; 14:64; 16:16; Luke 11:31-32; John 8:10-11; Rom 2:1; 5:16,18; 8:1,3,34; 14:23; 1Cor 11:32; Heb 11:7; James 5:9; 2Pet 2:6. One of the problems we have in defining our terms here is that the English word 'condemn' is also used in many other New Testament verses, namely Matt 12:7,37; Luke 6:37; 23:40; 24:20; John 3:17-19; 5:24; Acts 13:27; Rom 14:22; 1Cor 11:34; 2Cor 3:9; 7:3; 1Tim 3:6; Titus 2:8; 3:11; James 3:1; 5:6,12; 1John 3:20-21; Jude 1:4. for other Greek words as well as katakrinO/katakrima. This has complicated our task is unpacking the Romans 8:1 passage.
The section quoted above from Compton leans heavily on the passages in John 3, but the word used in John 3 is NOT 'katakrima\katakrinO but the simple word for 'judge' or 'assess'. This has been corrected by many modern versions but not the NKJV which has stuck to 'condemn/condemnation'. The following quotations from the ASV will make the point: Quote:
John 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
If this is the basis for concluding that all men are 'condemned' until they 'believe', I think that view is mistaken. The law court is often the metaphor at work in these passages. The Roman system was
accusation -> trial/assessment -> verdict
...this would bring us up to the word 'krinO/krima' to 'judge'. If the 'judgement' is 'guilty' the process would continue
-> pronouncement of sentence -> execution of sentence
... this would bring us to the word 'katakrinO/katakrima' which is the sentence which is declared after the accused has been found 'guilty'. (the Recovery Version's contention that this is an 'inward sense of condemnation' has no basis in fact. It is part of Witness Lee's theology of standing and state.) 'KatakrinO/katakrima' is the unique prerogative of the 'judge'. The 'accused' cannot pass this 'judgement'. Neither, incidentally can Satan. We can see here why if the 'krima' judgement/assessment is 'guilty' the process must then run its course to 'katakrima' - condemnation, BUT is the verdict is 'not guilty' then the process is at an end and there is, literally, no katakrima-condemnation.
To speak, as Christians do so often, of feeling condemned is a near fatal flaw. The law court has no interest in a man's feelings but only in his guilt or innocence. To suggest that Satan can 'condemn' the saint' is equally inappropriate. Only the judge can 'katakrinO' - pass sentence- on anyone.
There is a 'katakrinO/karakrima' which has been pronounced by the 'judge' and Paul refers to it in Romans...the first quotation shows the difference between 'judgement' and 'condemnation' Quote:
Rom. 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
You can get the sense if you substitute the word 'sentence' for 'condemn'. But it is in the section on the entrance of Sin into the human race that most of Paul's references lie...Quote:
Rom. 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom. 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
We can see here again how 'judgement' must always precede 'condemnation'. But what was that 'sentence'? Many have concluded that the 'sentence' is 'hell' but the account of man's first transgression says that the 'sentence' was 'death' and spiritual death at that. So the whole race is under that 'sentence' and is 'dead' towards God.
The John 3 passages are part of John's accusation that 'He came to his own and his own received him not'. They heard and rejected the witness. The 'sentence' is such a case is 'darkness' and their 'sentence' is what they chose. Is this a final state? Apparently not...Quote:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(2Cor 3:14-16 KJVS)
When the heart 'turns' the 'veil' is removed. That's another great NT word 'karargeO' but that's another story... ;-)
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2006/6/12 15:19 | Profile | Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619
| | Re: | | Quote:
This one I would need to examine more clearly. Is all condemnation the same condemnation ie does every crime receive the exact same irrespective of the crime?
Romans 5 sums it up;
5:12 Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned-
Then in 13-14 the Apostle demonstrates that death is penal and it reigned from Adam until Moses even over them that had not recieved the law.
In other words it is through the sin of one man that all in him are constituted sinners and subject to death. And even though when there is no law, sin is not imputed, yet, death reigned from Adam till Moses showing they are condemend becasue of being constituted sinners in Adam. This is Paul's argument.
vs. 18 "So then as it was through one offense unto condemnation to all men, so also it was through one rightous act unto justification of life to all men."
His whole point is that through Adam condemnation came to all men, and just so, through Christ justification came to all men (in Christ).
AS in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Yet just as in Christ there is reward in the comming age with regards to maturity in life, faithfulness, the nature of our work, and such, so also in the judgement of the lost, there are degrees of condemnation and each shall be judged according to his deeds.
Condemnation is through Adam and eternal Life is in Christ. But there is also reward and judgement for deeds done in the body.
We are not made sinners because of what we do. We sin because of what we are. To sin is our nature. It is in our constitution. We do what we do because of what we are and in Adam we are constituted sinners. Our deeds are just the expression of our fallen sinful humanity. Though a serpent never stike anyone, yet there is poisen in him. And though a person live a certian way, yet within him is the poisen of the Serpent. He is dead in trespesses and sins, he is devoid of the Life of God, and he is a slave of sin in his flesh. This is all of our condition by nature.
Graftedbrnach
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| | 2006/6/13 10:47 | Profile |
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