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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : trying to buy the Textus Receptus!

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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Stever, FOC have you both had enough of the digs at each other yet?

FOC, this is not a place to be dictating conversation of what is your interest or not. Take note of where you are, this is not a private conversation you are having here...

What is going on in the heart of you brothers?
Humble yourselves for the Lords sake.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/6/15 23:57Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Just another snippet...

Erasmus produced 4 editions of his Greek Text; 1516, 1519, 1522,?
Editions 1 and 2 did not have the "Johanine Comma". Luther translated his German Bible from Erasmus Edition 2. Erasmus came under strong ecclesiastical pressure to add them to his third edition. The record seems to be that he promised to do so if he found the words in a single Greek Manuscript. They were found in the Cod Monfort and he kept his promise by inserting them into his 3rd Edition. Tyndale translated from Erasmus 3rd Edition, although in Tyndale's 1526 Edition he has the phrase in brackets.

Perhaps a German-speaker can check on Luther's translation and see if the words are there or not. What does Eberfeld say?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/6/16 3:49Profile
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

I know very, very little german, but i checked 1 John 5:7 in E-sword, Here it is:

Verse 7:
"Denn drei sind, die da zeugen: der [b]Geist[/b] und das [b]Wasser[/b] und das [b]Blut[/b];"

Google english translation:
"Because three are, which witness there: the [b]spirit[/b] and the [b]water[/b] and the [b]blood[/b];"

Verse 8:
"und die drei sind beisammen. "

Google english translation:
"and the three are together."

The comma is not here.

Now here is KJV, v7-8
"7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Also notice how different verse 8 is between the German Luther Bible and the KJV.

Adam :-P


_________________
Combat Chuck

 2006/6/16 4:01Profile
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Ron,

I'd be interested in proof and quotations from erasmus and his contemporaries showing that he indeed was pressured to add the comma. From what I've seen, this is a myth started by some guy by the name of metzinger (which he later on revoked and admitted he was wrong). Stever can tell you all about it. ;-)

Edit:

Here we go, two bruce metger quotes taken from stevers post earlier:

Here we have metger making up the story:
“Erasmus promised that he would insert the Comma Johanneum, as it is called, in future editions if a single Greek manuscript could be found that contained the passage. At length such a copy was found--or made to order” (Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, 1st and 2nd editions).

Here we have metger revising his own words in his 3rd edition:
“What is said on p. 101 above about Erasmus’ promise to include the Comma Johanneum if one Greek manuscript were found that contained it, and his subsequent suspicion that MS 61 was written expressly to force him to do so, needs to be corrected in the light of the research of H. J. DeJonge, a specialist in Erasmian studies who finds no explicit evidence that supports this frequently made assertion” (Metzger, The Text of The New Testament, 3rd edition, p. 291, footnote 2).

For more information, contact Stever.

This by no means proves 1 John 5:7 is authentic, as FOC will quickly assert-- but it is important.

Therefore, I see no reason to believe Erasmus was pressured to add the comma into his text, unless you can find a source other than bruce metger.


_________________
Combat Chuck

 2006/6/16 4:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Just another snippet...

Erasmus produced 4 editions of his Greek Text; 1516, 1519, 1522,?
Editions 1 and 2 did not have the "Johanine Comma". Luther translated his German Bible from Erasmus Edition 2. Erasmus came under strong ecclesiastical pressure to add them to his third edition. The record seems to be that he promised to do so if he found the words in a single Greek Manuscript. They were found in the Cod Monfort and he kept his promise by inserting them into his 3rd Edition. Tyndale translated from Erasmus 3rd Edition, although in Tyndale's 1526 Edition he has the phrase in brackets.

Perhaps a German-speaker can check on Luther's translation and see if the words are there or not. What does Eberfeld say?


Heres a funny thing about this point.

Some have reduced this to an arguement that Erasmus "promise" is/was a hoax to try to prove the Comma (how this is supposed to prove anything is beyond me).

But going back to FACTS that we CAN prove...we see that the Comma was indeed left out of the first couple versions. For what reason?
Was the man ignorant of the strongest piece of evidence FOR the trinity in the NT?

This was no new bible student, the man would have known if that major a piece of scripture was "missing" from the text.

Its almost enough to cause one to wonder if the 'promise' wasnt real...not that I do, nor do I care to even ponder it, but "why" was such a huge doctrinal passage simply omitted ?

and *IF* Erasmus had believed it belonged from day one, theres not a man alive here or elsewhere that can convince me that Erasmus would have just casually left it out for two entire editions.

So the arguments about his promise in my opinion are not irrelevant if true, but entirely unneccesary to prove that at least Erasmus had to have some serious doubts about the Comma to simply leave it out as he did.

 2006/6/16 10:21









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Stever, FOC have you both had enough of the digs at each other yet?


quite.

Ive decided not to respond personally to stever anymore but only to repeat the facts I have listed.
This way I can keep myself from getting into trouble.
If stever wishes to keep making his personal attacks, so be it.
And how moderation handles such attacks is between them and our impartial God.

 2006/6/16 10:25









 Re:


Thats very interesting info chuck.
I wonder if Esword has luthers bible or not ;) (runs to check)

Quote:

Combat_Chuck wrote:
I know very, very little german, but i checked 1 John 5:7 in E-sword, Here it is:

Verse 7:
"Denn drei sind, die da zeugen: der [b]Geist[/b] und das [b]Wasser[/b] und das [b]Blut[/b];"

Google english translation:
"Because three are, which witness there: the [b]spirit[/b] and the [b]water[/b] and the [b]blood[/b];"

Verse 8:
"und die drei sind beisammen. "

Google english translation:
"and the three are together."

The comma is not here.

Now here is KJV, v7-8
"7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Also notice how different verse 8 is between the German Luther Bible and the KJV.

Adam :-P

 2006/6/16 10:27









 Re:

Quote:

FOC wrote:

Thats very interesting info chuck.
I wonder if Esword has luthers bible or not ;) (runs to check)


cool, they did have it..


1Jo 5:7 Denn drei sind, die da zeugen: der Geist und das Wasser und das Blut;
1Jo 5:8 und die drei sind beisammen.
(1Jo 5:7-8 GLB)

Can anyone read German ? :D

 2006/6/16 10:43
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Dude, the verses I quoted from were from the E-sword GLB.


_________________
Combat Chuck

 2006/6/16 18:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Combat_Chuck wrote:
Dude, the verses I quoted from were from the E-sword GLB.

ah...reading posts to fast...just saw that you did include esword in your previous post.
I need more sleep ;-)

 2006/6/16 23:13





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