Poster | Thread | beenblake Member
Joined: 2005/7/26 Posts: 524 Tennessee, USA
| Re: God's Word | | Dear crsschk,
I would ask that you read all the posts I wrote above to others on this issue. I will leave it up to you to read them.
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That is not what anyone is saying nor implying, it is a notion you are implying on others.
I am trying to help people to understand the importance of this notion. I agree with you that people don't think that is what they are saying. Somehow, people have misunderstood this connection that God and His Word are one. Jesus Christ is the Word and He is God. We are to worship God's Word as we are to worship God.
This is a truth: God's Word is God. However, not many people will believe this. God's Word proceeds forth from God. It comes from Him. In our limited earthly form, we speak by uttering words out of our mouth. We have a voice that echos through waves in the air. God's Word, however, is much greater. God's Word is full of power. When God speaks, it happens. God spoke the world in existence. Have you ever spoke something into existence? Can you imagine having such power?
God's Word does not rely on air waves or ears. God's Word is like so much more than a voice, it is an active power. The best way to say it is like this: God's Word is God's Will in action. God's Word is that thing that does God's Will. Otherwise, God's Will would just be dreams inside His mind. He would sit and think, and nothing would ever be done. When God speaks, His Word comes forth and does whatever He commands.
God's Word is the image of God, because God's Word is what acts. Think of it like this. You have a heart. No one can see into your heart. However, you also have a body. People can see your body, and can know your heart because of what you command your body to do. Your actions come from your heart, however, it is your hands, feet, and mouth that move. Likewise, the Word of God does the Will of God, and they are one.
God's Word is alive and living. It is not a static message written on stones or paper. God's Word is alive. God's Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
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Which means that they are then ... ?
GOD'S WORD AND THE TESTIMONY OF IT
When God speaks, His Word proceeds from Him. In order for this Word to be recieved, it must take a form. For instance, it must become sound in order that you can hear it with your ears. The sound itself is not God's Word, rather a carrier of God's Word. You might also call it a vessel by which God's Word comes. God's Word may be carried through many different forms.
The vessel then carries God's Word to a recipient. For instance, you may hear the sound of God's Word. You have recieved His Word coming directly from His mouth carried through sound. You then have witnessed God's Word.
As we know, God's Word is Spirit. God's Word comes to us in Spirit. Except in the case of Jesus, when God's Word became flesh. Otherwise, God's Word is Spirit. When God breaths on someone, His Spirit fills them.
When God's Spirit fills a person, they become a vessel holding God's Word. They themselves are not God's Word, they are filled with God's Word. They are then inspired by God. When that person speaks, they are speaking words inspired by God.
That person is witnessing the Holy Spirit. They are filled with the Spirit and are experiencing it. When that person speaks, they are giving a testimony to this experience. They are witnessing. The words coming from the mouth of a person filled with the Spirit are not God's Words, rather, they are a testimony to the Word of God. They are inspired by God and are from God, but are not God Himself.
The testimony of all the saints is significant. It is the testimony of Christ. The bible is one part of this. However, each and every person who ever lived and was filled with the Holy Spirit has a testimony. They have experienced and witnessed the Word of God. This body of believers who have lived throughout all time is the Church. The Church is the living testimony of Christ. The bible bears the testimony of a few number of believers. These believers have been proven by the giving of their life to God. In some cases, this life was taken in martyrdom. The testimony of saints, of the entire Church, has been proven by blood of the saints.
Revelation 6:9 (KJ) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
THE BIBLE IS TRUSTWORTHY
When I say the bible is not the Word of God, people often times take the opposite extreme. They think, "If the bible is not the Word of God, then it is not true. It is just a book of error that can be discarded." I ask, why do you take such an extreme position? Check your faith, because you may be placing too much faith in the bible rather than in Christ.
By saying the bible is not the Word of God, I am not calling into question the trustworthiness or the authority of scripture. All scripture has authority as granted by God, and all scripture has been proven by God. God has proven scripture through bloodshed, the martyrdom of saints. God has not proven scripture by preserving original documents. Rather, the proof of scripture as being inspired by God comes from so many people in the Church giving their life over to preserve the message. The bible has been preserved by God by working through the saints.
In our modern era, the saints who wrote and preserved the bible message are being called into question. I am seeing many books arising and being written attacking the people who have preserved the bible over the last 2000 years. The bible is being called into question. The accuracy of the bible is being attacked. And it is an appropriate attack by the Devil. First, the Devil established the lie that the bible is infallible. He has gotten so many so many people believing the bible is the Word of God. Think of how many people the Devil will drive away from Christ by discrediting the accuracy of the bible. So many people have built their entire faith on the bible, and when they discover even the smallest error, their faith shatters. Is this not the story of the man who wrote "The Di'Vinci Code"??
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Look at it from this perspective, what doubt's might you be implanting in the minds of the new believer? Do we not already have much of a problem with version and translation issues casting all kinds of doubt upon the same?
Before I was saved, I read the bible many times. I could not understand it at all. Instead, I drew from it my own interpretation and hung on scriptures that fitted my own opinion of God. I used the bible to justify my beliefs.
After I met Christ and was saved, the truth of the bible was revealed to me. I could read it easily and understand the message of Christ. I could see Christ revealed throughout. The bible was no longer my justification. Rather, it was affirmation.
The bible did not lead me to Christ. My brother lead me to Christ. It was Christ who saved me and changed me. After I was changed, and Christ was living inside me, I could then read the bible and know the words that were true. The bible was an affirmation of truth. It is a testimony and witness to Christ.
I am not planting any doubt's in the mind of believer's. My message is simple. Christ is your Lord. Turn to Christ. Abandon yourself completely and entire to Christ. This is the only possible way anyone can read the bible and discern truth. I fear more a person turning to the bible without Christ expecting to find answers, and being lead astray by their own interpretation. Christ should always be first. If a person is following Christ in complete abandonment, they will not be lead astray.
We should doubt the bible. We should not doubt Christ. We should question the bible and pray over it. We should always obey the command of Christ.
The problem becomes that many people live dependent on the bible as being the Lord of their life. Rather than pray and seek after the Lord, they read about Him in the bible. They do as the bible commands. The bible is not our Lord. And not every answer is in the bible. Sure, Christ may lead you to the bible, or even affirm a request with scripture. We can test ourselves against the bible. However, it should not be the source of our convictions. We should not be bible followers, or let the bible be the Lord of our lives. We should be followers of Christ, always seeking Him first and foremost.
I fear believers worshipping the bible. This has become prominent in the Church. Rather than seek after Christ, we are told to seek Christ in the bible, as if that is where He is found. Christ is spoken about in the bible, however, Christ lives in Heaven, and in believers.
WHY SHOULD WE NOT SAY THE BIBLE IS GOD'S WORD...
First and foremost, because it is not true. However, with lies comes consequences. Some people might say, "By saying the bible is the Word of God, it gives the bible authority. It helps us to stand confident on God's commands. We have something that is proven by which to give us authority." Shall we be like the Pharisees?
Calling the bible the Word of God has lead to many terrible things. Let me review some of the problems...
1) Bible Worship and idolatry. This is not as prominent in the Church who have devoted their lives to Christ. However, it is common among different religions who use the bible as entire basis of faith. Additionally, it is becoming more prominent among people who reject all religion and hold onto the bible as the only truth. For people who have truly accepted Christ, this is not a problem. However, mixed among the sheep are the lost who think they know Christ because they have read the bible. They worship the bible by obeying it's every command. They live by it as the exact word of God. They defend it as if it saved their life. They give their life over to it. And worst of all, these people don't realize that they are submitting unto their own interpretation.
This bible worship has been promoted and encouraged by the telling that the bible is the Word of God. We must obey God. We all know this. And so, they use the bible to defend their injustice and hate. I have heard just about every evil justified by the bible. People can twist it to say anything they want.
The truth is, we are to obey Christ. We are to worship Christ as our Lord and Savior. This is the message of the bible. However, some people don't want to accept Christ as Lord. Instead, they make the bible their Lord, instead of Christ.
2) Christians are pushing people toward the bible rather than Christ by telling them the bible is the Word of God. Because of this, people are not coming to Christ, rather, they are living under the canopy of the bible. They have a faith based upon the bible, rather than on Christ. In their heart, they do not know Christ. Rather, they only know about Him.
People are lost and remain lost because we push them toward the bible. Is that where we find God? Is God in the bible? Information about God is in the bible, but God is living in Heaven. We need to preach Christ, not the bible. People need to have faith first in Christ, and seek first Christ.
Some people will enter Heaven with bloody hands because they did not take the time to love a person and share Christ inside with them. Instead, they handed them a bible and walked away.
3) The plan of the Devil. The Devil has been planning his every move, and his latest attack is even more demonic. He has been promoting this lie and dependence on the bible for a very good reason. He has helped encourage and push the bible above Christ. He has made it into the Word of God. He has done this, because now, he will raise up His army of apostates.
With everyone believing the bible is the Word of God, the devil will now show through evidence and proof that it is not. He is calling into question the saints who upheld the bible. He is calling into question the authority and authenticity of the bible. He has slowly been adding lies to the bible, and now he will call those errors into the spotlight making people argue and question. His next move is to make the bible hated, and to remove it. The Church has grown so dependent on the bible, he will find a way to remove it entirely so the Church will be lost. What will the Church do without the bible?
Some people have blamed me of being a part of this, saying that I am from the Devil. Have you not been listening to me? I did not say the bible was untrustworthy. I have defended the bible as being the testimony of saints, preserved in message by God. I proclaimed Christ which is the message of the bible. The bible is the testimony of the Word of God. It is inspired of God. It is an awesome book given as a gift from God to His people.
The Devil, however, will take the opposite stand. He will say the bible is to be discarded. He will say, "If one part is untrue, then we have to reject the whole thing." The Devil has made the bible into a god, and now, the Devil will bring down that god so that he can establish his own throne on earth.
If there ever was a time when the Church needs to draw close to Christ, it is now. The truth must be known about the bible. We must realize our complete and entire dependence on Christ in Heaven.
Let us not be weak in faith, depending on the bible as our only source of Christ. Let us not rely on the bible as the only way to know Christ, or to even connect to Christ. Let not the bible be your God.
Lastly....I challenge you. I challenge you with this: search through the bible where it speaks of the "word of God" or the "word of the Lord." Take these statement and replace them with "the bible". Then take them and replace them with "Christ". Which proves to be true? In your heart, which is the truth? Are these scriptures speaking of the bible or Christ?
In Christ, Blake _________________ Blake Kidney
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| 2006/6/7 11:55 | Profile | beenblake Member
Joined: 2005/7/26 Posts: 524 Tennessee, USA
| Re: | | Dear crsschk,
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The scriptures are not a plaything to be tossed around at whim but a record of Gods thought and much more than mere "stories"
The bible is a message. Scripture testifies to Christ. A record of God's thought would be likened to a journal. A journal is kept not in order to deliver a message, but rather to express a need to communicate. God does not have such a need. He would never keep a journal. Rather, the bible is a gift to us. God has given us this record, this testimony, to help us. He did not give us the bible in order that we might know Him, rather, He gave us the bible in order that we seek Him.
The bible is a record of what God has done and is doing. It does not tell His thoughts. How easy would that be if it did? I would not have to seek Him out. I could just read the bible.
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"Yes, yes, we knew this, the Lord told us these things."
Does this not prove the source? Does it not prove Christ? The bible is a recorded testimony of Christ. Does this not confirm that?
The bible isn't necessary to know Christ, as this shows. They knew the Lord without the bible. However, the bible is like sweetener in tea. It is not necessary, but it makes the tea sweeter. The bible is not necessary to have faith. However, it does affirm our faith.
I am no way saying the bible is not true, or that it bears lies. I am not saying the bible is false. At no time did I ever say that. I am saying the bible is NOT the Word of God. Indeed, it may have some error in it. Indeed, it may be misinterpreted. It may also be denied. The Word of God has no error. The Word of God cannot be denied.
We know truth because the Lord comes to us. We then can confirm these truths by searching them out in scripture. Sometimes, we may read something that doesn't seem quite right. We have read it wrong. However, since we know Christ, we can be sure He will not lead us astray. For anyone who is truly seeking the Lord and following Him will not be lead down the wrong path.
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It is written for good reason, if we do not have this to bring all our fallen understanding as a safeguard and check against, then it is everyman for himself, that which we have far too much of in this day. This is the very stuff cult's are made of. You need to think this over again and think very seriously about what it is you are doing.
And has not many cults arisen by a complete misinterpretation of scripture?
Cults arise from a rejection of Christ. The Devil is the father of lies. Whether a person accepts or rejects the bible has nothing to do with cults arising.
I am not saying we should reject the bible. I am not saying the bible is false. I am not saying the bible is garbage. I am saying that we should first follow Christ and abandon ourselves to Christ. When we do this, then we will know the bible to be true because Christ is first in us.
Indeed, "it is written." It is true many things have been recorded for our sake. Many things have been preached for our sake. Many things have been done for our sake.
However, just because "it is written," does that make it the Word of God? Is everything that has been written the Word of God? What are we to say of the missing books of the bible, the books referrenced in the bible that are not included, like the book of Noah or the book of Enoch?
The bible is not our only way to test. There have been many bible based doctrines that have been proven false later. Many people have used the bible to justify false religions and lies of all sorts. How should we then be any different? How can we know if what we are believing is true or not? Surely not by reading the bible alone.
First and foremost above all things we have Christ. We should always, always abandon ourselves to Him, sacrifice our lives, and seek Him out. This should always be our first response and test. Then, with it offered to Him as a sacrifice, we should open our hearts and listen to His commands. We can then test what we have recieved against several sources. The first source being the bible. We also have each other. We are called a body for a reason. The parts work together in unison. Are we not in this debate to help encourage one another in faith. We should always rely on other members of the body. We can also test things in accord with previous experiences where we know God has worked in our lives. We can also ask ourselves if it matches the person of Christ. Would Christ do this? These are some ways to test. The bible is not our only source.
In love, Blake _________________ Blake Kidney
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| 2006/6/7 12:27 | Profile | Thirtydays Member
Joined: 2005/8/28 Posts: 1
| Re: The bible is NOT the Word of God | | brothers What is the point of endlessly debating a obviously heretical contention with someone who is not teachable. |
| 2006/6/7 12:53 | Profile |
| Re: | | Quote:
A living God who gave His life in exchange for others.
Blake, this is wrong thinking and you need to make the distinction between Son of God and Son of man.
The one who hung on that cross was Father's perfect offspring; His only begotten human Son -- full of Himself yet forsaken by His Father that He suffer the death as a human, NOT GOD. God could not shed His Blood, He had none to shed; Only a perfect man could, that would settled the issue of reconcilation.. We must remember when we call Him God in flesh or Son of God when He was on earth, that that was futuristic title expressed in a present tense. With God time is not a factor. Jesus, the Man and Christ, God in the second person of the Godhead, are now one in a body of flesh and bone--In reality it was always so in the mind of Father, but in actuality it was not so until He said: "It is Finished". Peter, by revelation, saw it beforehand and then Jesus said what He said to Peter and on-by that kind of revelation was His Church to be established.
Hebrews 10:5 (NASB-U) Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,"Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, But a body You have PREPARED FOR Me;
THe Bible wil explain all this to you.
:-)rm |
| 2006/6/7 12:59 | | Matt25 Member
Joined: 2004/3/19 Posts: 69 Athens Ga
| Re: The bible is NOT the Word of God | | Western churches are slipping further and further into apostasy precisely because they are NOT reading and taking the Bible as the word of God. _________________ Matt M.
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| 2006/6/7 13:12 | Profile | Smokey Member
Joined: 2005/2/21 Posts: 417 Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| Re: Word of God | | BeenB
Eph 6:17b; and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Since your first post you have been denying the Bible as the Word of God. Your whole posting history reflects this mindset, and it seems that with this posting you have come full circle. The very fact that Jesus over and over again referred to the the old written record ( the Old Testament) to validate his claims, should prove conclusively to anyone with a sincere heart to understand, that the bible can be trusted, and indeed is the "Word of God." I have no problem with the idea that Satan has his forces at work to discredit this website, and sew discord with the believers that come to learn here. I have no problem stating that I believe that you are more and more proving that you are one of his sons.
A word of advice for you:
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
A few words of warning for those who might be believing some of doctrinal error that you are introducing here.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
Consider your ways and repent, the time is at hand
Blessings Greg _________________ Greg
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| 2006/6/7 15:03 | Profile |
| Re: | | Quote:
A few words of warning for those who might be believing some of doctrinal error that you are introducing here.
Hi Smokey,
Just curious -- Who is "You" in your retort?
:-)rm |
| 2006/6/7 16:25 | | Smokey Member
Joined: 2005/2/21 Posts: 417 Edmonton Alberta Cda.
| Re: | | Ormly As I was responding to a beenblake post, I thought that would be obvious. The "you" I refer to is beenblake, and his ongoing efforts to cast doubt on scripture. Most who venture here still seem to be seeking Truth, and answers to help in thier walk with the Lord. Blessings Greg
ps. Go Oilers Go! _________________ Greg
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| 2006/6/7 17:05 | Profile |
| Re: | | Quote:
Smokey wrote: Ormly As I was responding to a beenblake post, I thought that would be obvious. The "you" I refer to is beenblake, and his ongoing efforts to cast doubt on scripture. Most who venture here still seem to be seeking Truth, and answers to help in thier walk with the Lord. Blessings Greg
ps. Go Oilers Go![/quote
O--Ok -- Gotcha --- and thanks
:-Drm
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| 2006/6/7 17:32 | | Combat_Chuck Member
Joined: 2006/1/27 Posts: 202
| Re: | | [b]Defend the Bible? I would as soon defend a lion! Unchain it and it will defend itself. C. H. Spurgeon [/b] _________________ Combat Chuck
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| 2006/6/7 19:53 | Profile |
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