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Olmry, please respond by Biblical Proof texts on your positions expressed below. Mere words are not acceptable, unless supported by proof.

You mention a good Bible 101 class- it is your turn to give it.

Should I begin in Genesis and work my way through?
Would you be persuaded if I gave you all the "proofs" you require?

Better yet, why don't you ask yourself some questions you have to have because of the gaping holes in your understanding.. I had them most of my life. I have very few left after I learned the Fathers perspective.

God is good and we must be open for adjustment to understand things from His perspective. What is His purpose for my/your life from the beginning; when He first thought of bringing me/you into existance?

Begin to read your Bible from that perspective, you will find it a new book.


 2006/5/26 18:40

Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia


Spiritual birth is the beginning of our spiritual walk. Thus it is referred to as a birth. We then grow as we feed on the sincere milk of the Word, and then we progress to eating meat and being teachers.

Hal Bachman

 2006/5/26 19:10Profile


Spiritual birth is the beginning of our spiritual walk. Thus it is referred to as a birth. We then grow as we feed on the sincere milk of the Word, and then we progress to eating meat and being teachers.

In capsule form you are correct but it needs to be expanded that the sustaining vision be formed.
For instance: You will know them that begin their spiritual walk. They will have problems and will ask questions. Why? Because the spiritual walk begins when it is recognized that death to self is the objective leading to intimacy with the Father, all kinds obstacles will rise up to cause doubt. Where are the teachers who can answer these questions from their own experience in "dying to self"?

Bare grain to be planted = the born again --- clean, pure, made innocent by the Blood of the Lamb, buried in the Kingdom to soak in the early and the latter Rain and then quickened by the Holy Ghost to new life that God can be pleased with and others can be blessed by. Without the pleasing to God blessing to others will be as a tare, empty of life. Jesus gives us this example from His earthly life.

The obedience from us (as grain) must stem from our love to the Father; a desire to be a part of whatever He is doing.

Keep in mind that Jesus (the man) did not need to transform His natural into the Spiritual. He had to protect His innocence (sinlessness). Now the same power given Him to protect is the same power given us, by Him, to overcome our sinful natures (sinfulness). Ergo, the need to “abide” as He did is quite the necessary thing.
He, willingly, laid down His life and became the pattern by which we must needs, lay down ours. It was from love [b]to[/b] the Father He functioned as a man. Can we function from less desire if we abide in Him? Can we say we abide in Christ and be indifferent to the command to Love the Father? Can we overcome aside from LOVE’S compelling? Can we overcome without a revelation of Christ that will produce the same vision that was His, that sustained Him to the cross where He proclaimed: "It is Finished"?



 2006/5/26 19:36

Joined: 2006/4/23
Posts: 101
West Sussex, England


Linda, How can the "coming upon" be an "infilling"? I don't get it except to be full of the Holy Ghost connotes intimacy with the Father. The "coming upon" is to lead one to it.

I see what you are saying. With the "coming upon" or the Baptism, that does not mean intimacy with the Father. I did not know I had made that distinction. It is worth thinking about, and your comment is well received Ormly.

In His Love


 2006/5/27 14:23Profile


Thank you, Linda. :-)

 2006/5/27 14:31

Joined: 2006/5/27
Posts: 1

 Re: Baptized with the Holy Ghost with the Bible evidence (utterance in tongues)

Hi Linda, just 'joined' sermon index and saw the discussion. Thought I'd just throw out a couple things: First, consider the depth of what Jesus taught about God desiring us to HAVE His Spirit more than we would desire to give good gifts to our children; (and in light of not being able to live the "Lord's [model] Prayer," without His help iin Luke 11. Secondly, look at the SEVEN things Jesus aaid His Spirit would do in; through and for us in John 15:26-16:14! All the teaching about the gifts AND fruit should be placed on this foundation! God bless!

 2006/5/27 15:09Profile


Ormly posts:

Jesus said he didn't come to save the RIGHTEOUS BUT SINNERS. There was 4000 years of people of whom many were righteous, justified by their faith in God and when Jesus died on the cross He shed His precious blood that finally reconciled them with the Father. They were set free from their captivity, held there by Adam's sin, that their own righteousness could not free them of.
Romans 5:1 (NASB-U)
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

That's not being born again. That's being saved from sins penalty --- death.

Being born again is for our lifes journey to become a begotten son of God. A Child is born and a son is given. Jesus was the first of the first born that we can witness as an example of what Father purposed for us before the foundation of the world, i.e., joint-heirship with Jesus.

That is the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Wrong teaching brings wrong conclusions in this matter. If you believe me to be wrong show me what I violate.


[b][color=0033FF]Stever responds to the above WRONG (FALSE) TEACHING of Ormly:[/color][/b]

Matthew 19:10-13
10. And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
11. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
12. But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
13. But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

What Christ is saying here, contrary to your post, is that the Pharisees and the Saducees and the Jewish leaders were “self righteous” and thought themselves saved by following the law and BY THEIR OWN WORKS. They didn’t need a Messiah, they didn’t need God, they believed that they were saved by their own actions of following the law. Christ exposed them on the sermon on the Mount. Their thoughts made them guilty, not only their action

Contrast that type of “righteousness”, which is nothing more than being self righteous, with that of a person who knows in his heart that he is a sinner and calls out to God. A person that knows that now matter how many lambs, goats, or bullocks that he sacrifices for his sin, that he is still a sinner. He knows in his heart that his sin in only COVERED by the Blood, but still feels in his heart that he is a sinner.

To clarify this issue for us, in Matthew 5:20 Christ tells us that unless our righteousness EXCEEDN the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, THEY WILL NOT ENTER HEAVEN:

Matthew 5:20
20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[u][b][color=00CC33]Olmry, what you are “teaching” here is false teaching.[/color][/b][/u]
The Bible tells us that we have the Heroes of Faith, not the heroes of works, that look down upon us from the stands, urging us on towards the finish line. Men like David, and Abraham, and Noah. Men that had the most personal of all walks with the God of the Universe. Men who knew they were sinners, and not righteous. Men who knew there was only one righteous- God. [u][b][color=0033FF]ALL OF THESE WERE MEN OF FAITH, THE SAME KIND OF MEN THAT WE ARE CALLED TO BE![/color][/b][/u]

The names on this list: Abel, Encoh, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sara. Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, David, Samuel, and the Prophets, all of who:
“33. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. 34. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36. And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38. (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Hebrews 12 sums it up, and compares these saints with us, and their walk with our walk. [u][b][color=0033FF]THERE IS NO DIVISION BETWEEN US![/color][/b][/u]

“1. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

God bless,



7. For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8. And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

 2006/5/27 20:43


Read it and weep:

Matthew 9:13 (KJV)
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Mark 2:17 (KJV)
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 5:32 (KJV)
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Righteous as He uses the word is NOT self-righteousness, Stever.

I assume you know who Anna and Simeon were, you know, in the NT, the gospels? Tell me do you believe they were righteous folk? How about Zacharis and Elizabeth, Mary, the Disciples? Do you believe they were self-righteous folk or good righteous folk obedient to God as best they knew how to be? Your reply doesn't mention folk like that. How come?

I don't believe you read my post very well. Perhaps another go at it would help.


 2006/5/27 21:10

Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


Ormly wrote:


That's not being born again. That's being saved from sins penalty --- death.
Being born again is for our lifes journey to become a begotten son of God.

being born again [b]is[/b] being saved from sins penalty which is death.

We all are born spiritually dead and therefore we are all soulish in nature. Our souls rule our physical bodies.
[b]When we become born again[/b], we become spiritually alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord and no longer soulish.
[b]1Corinth 6:17[/b] [color=990000]But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.[/color]

Being born again is a one time thing and not a lifes journey to become a begotten son of God.
It is being born again to eternal life.
[b]John 1:12[/b] [color=990000]But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[/color]
see John 3:15

Our souls, then, need to be the servant to our spirits to rule our flesh in a Godly manner. That is being crucified with Christ:
It is the soul that we battle everyday, who will rule? Will it be our soulish passion to walk after the flesh, or will it be our spirit, to life in Christ Jesus which has made me free from the law of sin and death?
[b]Romans 8:4[/b] [color=990000]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/color]

These are verses that refer to what born again is:
[b]2Corinth 5:17[/b] [color=990000]Therefore if any man be in Christ, [b]he is a new creature[/b]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[/color]

[b]Galatians 6:14-15[/b] [color=990000]But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, [b]by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.[/b]
[b]:15[/b] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, [b]but a new creature.[/b][/color]
Ormly wrote:
I believe there is a clear distinction between salvation by the Blood of Christ and being Born again of His Spirit.

Show the distinction from Scripture.

What is the difrence between washed by the Blood of the Lamb & being born again?

Can you be born again and not washed by the Blood?
washed by the Blood and not be born again?

Our sins are the evidence that God uses against us. If our sins haven't been [b]washed away by His atoning blood[/b], then the evidence against us will condemn us on the Day of Judgment.

you might ask, how does God prove that evidence?
He uses the Law. What does the Law do?
The Law is used to show us that we cannot uphold the law and we are incapable to do it and that we need to be changed from within[b](become born again)[/b] in order to accomplish the Law.

The Law not only shows us that we sin, it also shows us why we need to be changed most of all.
[b]Romans 7:18-21[/b] [color=990000]I know that good does not live in me that is, in my human nature. For even though the desire to do good is in me, I am not able to do it.
[b]:19[/b] I don't do the good I want to do; instead, I do the evil that I do not want to do.
[b]:20[/b]if I do what I don't want to do, this means that I am no longer the one who does it; instead, it is the sin that lives in me.
[b]:21[/b] So I find that this law is at work: when I want to do what is good, the evil is the only choice I have.[/color]
After the Law has done its job, they end up saying, [color=990000]O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?[/color] [b]Romans 7:24[/b]

God doesn't only forgive your sins, which is the evidence HE uses against us;
first He must forgive who you are personally, which is spiritually dead.

When God forgives who you are, you are then changed, Born again, a new creation, Born of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

If He doesn't, first, forgive who you are, you couldn't come into His presence nor be able to follow him in a Christian walk which is after the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
[b]Romans 8:7[/b] [color=990000]Because the mind-set of the flesh is hostile towards God, for it is not subject to the law (the evidence) of God, nor indeed is it able to be.[/color]

Then after forgiving who you are personally, He then forgives what you do and what you will do in the future.

He forgives what you do in order for you to stay in His presence.

In the Old Testement, Lot was righteous
[b]2Peter 2:7[/b] [color=990000]But when righteous Lot was sore distressed by the gross misconduct of immoral men He rescued him.[/color]

 2006/5/27 23:43Profile



You can't read very well either. Perhaps there is something in the water? Words do mean something. What part of my post didn't you understand? Perhaps re-reading it, a word at a time for understanding, would prove helpful.

The second part of your reply is standard stock "Tulip" speak that contradicts itself upon investigation.. Ergo, not Biblical because it is twisted, wretched from its moorings scripture, that it accomodate Calvin's theme.


 2006/5/28 7:25

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