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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The war of spirit and flesh is to see who rules and reigns in our lives, not whether we are saved or not.



What is the 'flesh'?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/25 16:12Profile
Onesimus4God
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Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 277
Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico

 Re:

the flesh = the fallen sin nature of the earthy vessel that is destined for the grave.


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Lahry Sibley

 2006/4/25 17:44Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi 'O',

Quote:
the flesh = the fallen sin nature of the earthy vessel that is destined for the gr



So the next question has to be, "Is death the Savior?"

BTW, I am asking these questions sincerely in hopes you could shed light on this topic as we have dead ended it in these forums many times and I keep hoping someone will come along with a piece of the puzzle that we are 'missing'.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/26 8:17Profile









 Re:

When I hear "flesh" for some funny reason I think of Frank Sinatra's song - "I did it MY Way."

Cain did it his way -- the Galatians tried doing it their way, etc. etc..
Flesh, may be immoral or seemingly moral - even good deeds, yet void of spirit.
Not always obvious sin, but not originating from the Spirit.

Quote:
Excerpts from Zodhiates:
(A) Generally and without any good or evil quality implied. (1) The opposite of to pneuma, the spirit expressed.
(III) Metonymically meaning flesh, human nature, man
Simply, the physical part of the personality of man
(B) As implying weakness, frailty, imperfection, both physical and moral; the opposite being pneuma



It's been "our way" against "His way" since the garden. Strong's also mentions "flesh" to just be "human nature" .... just "us".
The desire to "glory in the flesh" is set against God getting ALL the Glory. The sin from the beginning. Acting autonomously from His Spirit. Spirit against flesh is not always the battle of gross sin against righteousness .... but can be self-fulfillment of righteousness against total dependence on Him. Wanting some of the credit. A lack of faith is flesh. A desire for praise or predominance is flesh. Even self-condemanation is flesh. All those hidden faults are flesh. Anything not like or from Him is flesh. Eyes fixed on self in Any way is flesh, whether it be shyness or seeking attention. Even depression or the desire for preeminance. So it's not always those burger-biggie sins that we think of immediately. And our flesh certainly is not "dead" --- yet.

Hudson Taylor, towards the end of his missionary ministry said something to the affect that - 'In my greatest prayers or loftiest sermons, I still see the tinge of flesh'. What humility - about the same as Paul's.

Just some of the 127 times and many ways the word is used but these mostly to show that it is not 'always' the " really base things" that we think of.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are: 1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Phi 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honor to the satisfying of the flesh.

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?


I'm not sure if this is anything a part of this general conversation Robert but it's just your question of what is flesh that caught my eye the other day and just the thoughts I had.


By His Grace Only.

Annie

 2006/4/26 9:53
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Annie,

Thanks for the input.

Quote:
I'm not sure if this is anything a part of this general conversation Robert but it's just your question of what is flesh that caught my eye the other day and just the thoughts I had.



So do you view the 'flesh' in the born again as human-ness still corrupted with original Sin or just simply humanness in a fallen world filled with temptations?

Thanks,

Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/26 10:26Profile
Onesimus4God
Member



Joined: 2006/1/16
Posts: 277
Chapala, Jalisco, Mexico

 Re:

I'm having a hard time understanding how you would conclude that the next question is what you stated Robert. Why don't you just come on out with what you are after and stop beating around the bush.

In Him,

"0"


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Lahry Sibley

 2006/4/26 10:55Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi 'O',

Quote:
I'm having a hard time understanding how you would conclude that the next question is what you stated Robert. Why don't you just come on out with what you are after and stop beating around the bush.



OK, I'll try again. Do you believe that at physical death our struggle with Sin and 'the flesh' will be over? If so, why?



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/26 10:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:
So do you view the 'flesh' in the born again as human-ness still corrupted with original Sin or just simply humanness in a fallen world filled with temptations?

Thanks,

Robert




I see it as God wanting to show all creation, including the Angels and Satan, that Freewill wins out in the end and by Love alone.

He allows us to keep our "human nature" so that "choice" is always there and the options are always there ... so that when we are judged, we are judged by our freewill choices.

If just the definition of "heresy" for one is "Choice - the opinion Chosen" ... then God must really want Freewill to be the rules behind His ultimate purpose for creation.

In the end, all that will be left is "what was of Him" and because of Love.

Satan is pure hatred - God IS Love.

Satan wants robots - God wants freewill offerings.

Cain was given the choice, but he chose the wrong way and he chose jealousy and hatred which always leads to murder in one sense or another.

Until we see Him and are "Like Him", we don't even need a "world full of temptations" to act out in our own human-nature/flesh.
We don't need outward temptations to prefer things "our way". Self-indulgence, etc. mentioned before is "human" nature - HIS Nature is His Spirit.

The provision has been given to not walk in the flesh or operate autonomously - His Indwelling Spirit is there just waiting to be included in our time and choices - and that choice between self, in one form or another or His Spirit's direction will always face us, by second by second choices of which to follow or listen to.

Lean not to your own understanding, in all of your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths. And it's funny that that was an O.T. verse at that. Even then, they had the choice.

Romans 7 and 8 are pretty good about showing this warfare .... but some of those other verses above, show that it's not always facing those obvious sins that He's talking about.
It's the choice of surrender of our will to His.

We are battling the world, the flesh and the devil - until we see Him.

And why we have to run this "race".

Don't know if this answers your question exactly, but just how I see how Freewill is to His Glory in the end.

All His Best.

Annie

 2006/4/26 11:16
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Annie's: Don't know if this answers your question exactly, but just how I see how Freewill is to His Glory in the end.



Thanks for the post. I just love to ask these questions to gain more insight into what the Lord has shown others. My questions are short because I like to take the thoughts one at a time. Maybe some other time on a different thread. I appreciate yours and "O"'s comments.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/26 11:56Profile





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