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 Re:

Oh Lord, Now Schambach ????

I give up.

 2006/4/4 22:01









 Re: Discernment in today's church.

This was posted on another thread. I don't know what else to say.

Take care Patrick and all.

Quote:
from posted article:
- a subject avoided and rejected

How to take up a controversial issue, how to open up a sensitive subject without causing conflict and much mental strife? How to provide an environment, a moment of consideration for a cause which has been forcibly dismissed and removed from the agenda? How to handle an item which causes a sense of condemnation and which, according to the many, ought to render the daring messenger a large sign to wear which says “Judgmental” and “Pompous”.

The necessity of a spiritual awakening is such an item. The word, used in a Christian context, disqualifies and condemns present conditions in favour of something else. This word threatens the present order and the tranquillity produced by hard labour in private as well as by common efforts.




Jesus said "In Spirit and Truth".

Paul said, 1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself {holiness}, [u]and[/u] unto the "doctrine"; continue in 'them': for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

The Quote above should and does fit or applies to, the subject of "Discernment Ministries" too.

What I see is one without the other and it can be just as this quote says for those concerned for the error in the 'church'.

Seeking a right relationship with the Lord in our own lives, or requiring the need to be "revived" because our heart's are hardened, is of course a necessity ... but what I also see is throwing out sound doctrine to reach some sort of end, which 'some' call "Revival".

If we don't get the sound doctrine part down first, we'll follow anyone who even says that word "revival".

We can't depend on Pastors or leaders to lead us into all truth. God holds us individually responsible to be before Him for "Spirit and Truth".

The days of eating the meat and spitting out the bones are about over when following "teachers or prophets".

Because they did not have the "agape" for the "truth", God will send them a strong delusion.

Signs and wonders and false teachings, are part of Jesus' warning.

While we're seeking to be revived from the dead, we Must seek to love and find Truth, lest we get swept away by the Counterfeit Revival that we are on the heels of.


God Bless.

 2006/4/4 22:16
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi TS,

Quote:
Robert Quote:

“By the way, it is important to clarify that the prayer center in
Kansas City does NOT teach "sexual encounters" with Jesus. But
they do major on "Jesus as bridegroom/ Lover" - which causes
these problems down the line. It is totally predictable that as these
teachings go out wider and wider - then "sexual" experiences will
result. -Which is exactly what has been happening - even if they
never intended it to. Their teachings totally lay the groundwork for
such encounters. But I just needed to clarify that point.

This is actually Andrew's article." (????)




Yes, I posted (one of) Andrew's follow up articles and this was part of that.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/5 7:57Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

I wish to post an E-mail I received from Andrew's list in which he shares some feedback from the original article as well as additional insight into what exactly he is talking about.

[b]REPLIES to 'JESUS AS "LOVER"??' Article:
Andrew Strom[/b]

"D--" writes:
I ran into this a few weeks ago at our home fellowship. A woman
whom I see to be very Spirit filled, was talking to us at the dinner
table about being taken into the "upper chambers" where Jesus
laid her down on a bed of roses (because He is the Rose of Sharon
He can do that, she said), and that He made love to her. She
described to me this whole scene as if it were out of a romance
novel. The thought of Jesus actually making love to me made me
sick... I was actually disheartened, grieved and shocked that she
was talking about this. What gets me is that her friends who were
with her all agreed as if this was sound biblical doctrine.

"J----" writes:
I just went to a ladies retreat two weeks ago and the theme was
this same "lover Jesus" as portrayed in a book they used called,
"With an Everlasting Love" by Kay Arthur. It was so Godless and
selfish and full of "eros", putting thoughts and feelings in whoever
reads it that certainly did not bring glory to God... I now have the
opportunity to confront the pastor's wife about this teaching that
literally every woman fell for (except me!) and was "wooed" by their
sensuality as women and the need for love, that they sucked it right
up.

"R---" writes:
I moved here to KC 2 years ago to attend [the Prayer Center]...
I have been so confused by the whole up-sweep of the "Bridal
Paradigm" and ravished heart of Jesus and Song of Solomon.
I cannot relate to Jesus as romantic lover, nor do I want to!! I am
trying to have clean thoughts and a pure heart. I want a Godly
husband to be that for me, to model Christ's love and headship.
All my friends tell me, "Jesus is your husband - let Him be your
first love and your provider". As if I should shun men and give up
on the idea of marriage.

"L---" writes:
There is a strange message behind this Bridal Paradigm - It was
shown at the CALL in Kansas City. I was there. I witinessed this.
There was a call to all those young people who were in attendance
at this KC gathering and a few older - to pledge a marriage covenant
right then that night to be MARRIED to Christ.

There was a Marriage Canopy held up for a marriage procession as
hundreds marched under it as to become covenantly married to
Christ. They made it seem so righteous and holy. So many threw
away their discernment and followed the leaders - forgetting that the
marriage actually takes place in heaven at the marriage supper of the
Lamb.

CBN NEWS REPORT - Jan 6, 2002:

"The Call" in Kansas City: A Marriage Covenant with Jesus.
By Wendy Griffith CBN News Reporter.

Some 20,000 mostly young people packed the Kansas City
Convention Center on New Year's Eve for a wedding ceremony
unlike any other... as each person who came embarked on a
marriage covenant with the Bridegroom of Heaven... From noon
until midnight they danced and sang, fasted and prayed, and got
ready to get married to Jesus.

"There's going to be a wedding and God is raising up friends of the
Bridegroom to prepare the church, there's going to be a wedding!"

One by one, thousands of men and women, young and old, made
their vows and walked under the prayer shawl symbolizing their
commitment to Jesus.

[A COMMENTATOR NOTES: The huppah is in fact an integral part
of a binding WEDDING CEREMONY between man and woman;
therefore what these young people were doing was getting married -
but to whom? The Bible tells us that the marriage of the Lamb
takes place "in heaven" and only at the Day of Redemption when
all believers are gathered in. It does not take place on earth as a
"preparation" for the Lord's coming].

Continuing the CBN Report...
"Stewart Greaves, a 30-year-old, said, "I really feel like the Lord is
calling young people to fall madly in love with Him. I've always felt
that the difference between religion and relationship is intimacy with
Jesus..."

Here in Kansas City, there has already been a tremendous focus
on the bridal love of Jesus... where for three and a half years, a
team of prophetic singers, intercessors and others have held
24-hour-a-day praise and worship focusing on Jesus as the
bridegroom. [-END of REPORT].

FROM a BOOK that is Required Reading at the School of this
Kansas City prayer center:

"He [God] has given Himself to both the exhilirations and the
woundings of a lovesick heart. When He gazes upon me, He sees
through the eyes of love and desire. He comes before me and
says, 'I am a Man in love. I am a God that burns with desire, and
I have set My affections on you. I am an all-consuming fire of love,
and you are the inheritance that My Father has promised me. Will
you receive My love?'" (Pg 57).

"O Gaze Eternal,
How penetrating are Your Fires
Rushing through my darkest places
With the burning streams of Desire
Leaving me naked, purged and bare
... Yet embraced...
You take hold of my weakest places
And kiss them with Your mercy
Lifting up my low grounds
With your mighty love so holy..." (Pg 52).

"She lifted her arms wide to the Lord and said with all of her
strength and her love, 'Enjoy me. Right here, right now, in my
absolute weakness, enjoy me.'" (Pg 84).

NOTE: The above book goes on and on in a similar vein for
200 pages. We remind you again that this is an officially
recommended publication at this Kansas City prayer center, with
a Foreword by the LEADER of the movement himself. It is
"Required Reading" for the young people at their ministry School.

When they talk about a Bridal "Paradigm" - what do they mean?
Well, a 'paradigm' is a new mindset or "world-view". These people
are now viewing Jesus and Christianity through an entirely new set
of lenses - so to speak. -Through this 'BRIDAL' Paradigm. For
many, that is now their dominant understanding of Jesus Christ.

Comments anyone?

*****End of Article*******


Ed. As an additional comment I must mention that Andrew told me personally that these are quite moderate examples and are not to be construed as 'extreme'.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/5 8:01Profile









 Re:

Just to back you up Robert....

this stuff is 'sick', regardless of who reports on it and people are not taught any better, that Jesus doesn't "come to your room" etc. ... He's seated at the right Hand of the Father .... but the point I feared ... is that any 'extreme' from Satan is always to counter or destroy a truth ... no matter what the truth is. And there are so many phenomenas out there now that have caused a good many to fear the true baptism in the Spirit, etc.
For every lie promoted, there's a truth that's being robbed. If Hudson Taylor, Wurmbrand, Nee and many others commentate on a book, now Satan has destroyed those commentaries. And Truth is thrown in the streets once again and our foundations erroded, heresy by heresy. I can't sit back and watch it. It's too much to watch what even has come through here. We [b]need[/b] Watchman, but if they're not allowed to give warning, it's way Too grievious.
Take Good care brother. Go with GOD.

 2006/4/5 9:24
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Annie,

The enemy is a master at taking things to extremes. I think its why so many times in non-pentecostal circles, pentecostalism is thrown out (baby and bathwater as they say).

I did have a thought that keeps coming back to me. Does it seem as though folk get into all sorts of weird things when they fail to do what the Lord asked of them? I mean, simple obedience to clear teachings in scripture about 'ministering' to the Lord. I think about:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matthew 25)

Look at the "[u]I[/u] was" statements.

* I was hungry
* I was a stranger
* I was thirsty
* I was sick
* I was in prison

Here are 5 clear examples our Lord gave of how to 'minister' to the Lord. I know this is not popular, but why do folk seek mystical experiences to find the Lord, when He is in every homeless shelter, hospital, and jail cell in the world? I cannot help but understand that our Lord is saying, [i] Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.[/i] Now, either He meant what He said or He didn't. He is telling is how to express our faith.

I don't discount other means also such as singing and worshiping and making melody in our hearts to the Lord or even fellowship with the Saints, etc. But I am afraid we have majored on the minors and [i]neglected[/i] one of the truest expressions of worship and its good old fashioned obedience. Behold, to [i]obey[/i] is better than to sacrifice.

Is it not a Saul generation that would prefer a sacrifice to obedience? They will bring the sacrifice of 'praise', but will not do what Jesus described as His definition of ministering to Him. And the cost is a terrible one when we read on in the passage. I mean, really, how can we keep waiting on a word from God to go do what He has already commanded us? We have a messed up idea of what 'worship' really is, in my opinion. Is it not lip-service when our words of adoration do not match our actions? Would God prefer so of our 'offerings' in place of obedience? Would it not bring Him glory to just simply do what He said to do as our primary means of expressing our faith and not continuing to find crafty ways to give Him things that He has not required at our hands?

Am I making sense here?




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/5 9:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Would it not bring Him glory to just simply do what He said to do as our primary means of expressing our faith and not continuing to find crafty ways to give Him things that He has not required at our hands?

Am I making sense here?

Perfectly.

More so, may I say amen? Thank you for this pithy exposition.

 2006/4/5 10:57









 Re:

Robert, you're beating the right drum now brother.
I signed back on here in January with MATHEW 25 and "go out ..... and do" and thought I had posted that too many times since or began to feel I had. Especially MATTHEW 25. Excuse the emphatics, but why isn't that part seen once you come against the "crud".

Patrick's thread with the picture of that little boy for one .... the Richard Wurmbrand threads .... the tortured Saints .... the witnessing on secular forums ... the Love thread .... what else ? ... the JESUS threads .... all get forgotten once you touch another phony phenomena or "ministry".

Not only do we "throw out the baby with the bath water" in these teachings you mentioned, but the messengers too, if we touch someone's guru or whatever. Everything else they agreed with you on is forgotten from then on and you're labeled this or that and all else is forgotten.
If a watchman also has a burden for souls plus, plus, plus are they at fault ?

Go out into the highways and byways and compel them to come in.

Our very salvation hangs on Matthew 25:31-46.

Well, I just wish Robert, that you'd edit your Post and put it up in Bold print, because it's a masterpiece and you know the 'counterfeit' is destroying the old paths or the Real. Praise Jesus !!!

Keep on keeping on and I'm glad you've 'made' the time to watch over. Thanks from a lot of folks. Amen.

 2006/4/5 11:35









 Re:

hi all,robert ur quote's are extremely worrying extremely!
but i would suggest caution,i just feel in my heart unsettled by andrews ministry,as you can tell i'm no fan of kcp..but what worries me most is where could Andrew go after he pulled out of the all ihop-kc thing? maybe im being unfair but it strikes me as slightly predictable that he goes from there to discernment!
in is heart maybe he knew he was involved in some stuff that was being highly criticize by others,and felt the only place left for him to rebuild some integrity was the discernment ministry..
i find it all very cynical myself..what worries me most is motive..is it for Gods glory or to score some points on ex-friends?
andy

ps as someone said here there all men and all open to mistakes

 2006/4/5 13:02
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Andy,

Quote:
i find it all very cynical myself..what worries me most is motive..is it for Gods glory or to score some points on ex-friends?



I understand. Andrew comes from the 'out of church' movement, which he has written about extensively. He was involved in the prophetic movement as he lived in New Zealand and studied revival. He is very versed on the revivalists and their core doctrines. So, in fairness I think he believed that the prophetic movement should have some real 'prophets'. Ron Bailey (philologos) often talks about being pedantic when using Bible terms.

Andrew had one idea of 'Prophet', but those within the movement saw it as something quite different. I think he wanted to change it from within (to be a tool used of God to that purpose), but after a huge prophetic movement meeting in KC in 2004 or 2005, he renounced the movement all together.

Being from New Zealand he had read about Kansas City and believes that God was going to start bringing revival to America from KC. He knew the KC prophet thing was way off the rails, but again, hopes to try to see God salvage what he believes God still wants to do. He came here to the US on a 5 year visa in Feb 2004 to try to make a call to those folk who were estranged by the troubles that had happened with the movement. I suppose the whole topic of IHOP has come into play because of the connection. He has felt those things which he has just now made public for at least a few years (maybe longer) as we talked about it early on.

He even went as far as to rent out the cafeteria at the old Metro Christian Fellowship Church (home of KC prophets, etc) to try to hold Sunday PM meetings to bring correction to the movement by preaching repentance and revival. That went on for a few months and then IHOP (or someone affiliated) bought back the Metro church and ended his short ministry there. this happened soon after he released the "Leaving the Prophetic Movement" article. He really believed that those guys would come together and repent in light of recent failures high up in leadership; but it was almost the opposite. And for that cause, he rolled out.

Hope that helps a bit.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/4/5 13:27Profile





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