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roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
… sister D posted this from the sermon and i've used it as a check list to see if i've been accused of any of these;



Rahman, I see you’ve used my summery list to form an evaluation of yourself….. …oops……. of how others view you. That, from my understanding of Verwer’s sermon is not where he was driving his points. It was not about how others view us, or even how we view ourselves in comparison to others.

I suppose we can make “extremist” mean a positive virtue – like Jesus was an extremist. But I think we need to dress this word in its original context in Verwer’s message, rather then just extract it and then use it bare-naked. I feel we need to respect the spirit of Verwer’s message, and the burden that Combat Chuck is carrying. Some of the comments on the thread, to me, seem to suggest a tangent veering off from that. And in the process the punch of the message has been lost. And so has the burden.

Quote:
Ego trips (yes - i'm asked often why i just can't go along with the program)

Others could be misjudging, or they could be right. The challenge is knowing the difference. Help, Lord!

Quote:
Emotionalism (yes - i've been told that i'm obsessed with God,

While it might not be possible to be too “obsessed” with God, it is possible to be obsessed with certain attributes of God at the exclusion of others. That then becomes extreme.

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Signs/wonders/miracles (no - the kind of miracles many churches seek i don't see enough purity in the Body for such divine manifestations to display) .

The other extreme is lack of faith - scepticism: God doesn’t do those kind of miracles today.

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Local church (no - my loyalty is to Christ first and to the dismay of many i detest denominationalism)

But that could be an extreme view that justifies one’s refusal to submit to others. God works through local churches.

Quote:
Legalism (yes - i'm told i'm pre-occupied with following rules - but really it's only His rules i'm overly concerned about, if that's possible)

I’ve heard this a lot, by some of the most pharisaic of Pharisees. “Whatsoever is not of faith is sin – including following the rules” I’m sure you have the balance, though your words may not say it all.

Quote:
Liberty cult (no - i think so called liberty is a huge part of our spiritual illness)

This is just another end of the pendulum – as extreme as legalism. It has nothing to do with the freedom that Christ came to give.

Quote:
Perfectionism (yes - ok i admit that i think it's better to be to disciplined than not enough ... Pray for me for our Lord is still working on me with this)

Still, you can be over the rails on that one too – fleshly. I’m sure that you wish not merely to be are more polished and self-reliant in the flesh, but that Christ’s perfect character be formed in you.
Quote:
I admit that i'm an extremist, just seems tho that these days i'm almost opposite of everything that most other saints i know are extremist for ....


I know the feeling of being counter-culture – as far as the religious culture goes. The challenge is to avoid the extreme of being a lone ranger and failing to see how God uses all those imperfect people around us to form Christ within me.

Quote:
This sermon would never make it with a lot of saints i know ..

And yet it is a welcome relief from the bondage of extremism. It leads to a better balanced life.

Quote:
People viewed Christ, Paul (mover of seditions, sect ringleader), and the prophets as extreme, too. How do I know? Well, they killed them.


This is true but not what Verwer speaks about. These people were actually very well balanced, no doubt the result of God’s purifying fires - and that’s why they could endure such intense opposition– and not crack up or walk away from God. They keep their eyes on the focus – the Lord. And they kept the message pure.

Quote:
If people think you go a little too far, your probably doing alright.


Not necessarily. They could be right: We could be off the wall, and not see it.

I believe neither Combat, nor Verwer are calling us to justify our “extremism” but to recognize our tendencies to stray off the straight and narrow by excluding certain truths, embracing only our favored doctrines, and then justifying our positions while turning our noses up at the one’s on the other end of the pendulum. Eventfully our unbalanced doctrines go over the edge and are no longer Biblical.

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The proper balance is the balance of truth and practice and not taking one aspect of truth to the exclusion of others.


This I believe is what is needed. It is all too easy to embrace a partial truth and not see that we have neglected the balancing truth.

Quote:
Wesley was surely labeled a legalist, and I would use his sermon title "Holiness is not Legalism" as a good reference.


I don’t know the sermon, but I’d like to suggest that many did end up turning the true pursuit of holiness into extreme conservatism. Gerry Bridges brings the balance back in his book, “The Pursuit of Holiness.”

Yikes… what a lot of rambling..

Diane


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Diane

 2006/4/4 20:43Profile
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Quote:

I believe neither Combat, nor Verwer are calling us to justify our “extremism” but to recognize our tendencies to stray off the straight and narrow by excluding certain truths, embracing only our favored doctrines, and then justifying our positions while turning our noses up at the one’s on the other end of the pendulum. Eventfully our unbalanced doctrines go over the edge and are no longer Biblical.

Diane


This is it. Well said.


_________________
Combat Chuck

 2006/4/5 1:07Profile
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Quote:

letsgetbusy wrote:

I think few go too far, but many don't go far enough.


Agreed!

Quote:
It seems like we should take our individual sins more seriously considering that Paul thought he should "die daily."


Agreed.

Quote:
People viewed Christ, Paul (mover of seditions, sect ringleader), and the prophets as extreme, too. How do I know? Well, they killed them.


Our problem is that people in this thread are using different meanings for the term "extremism".

Some of us think extremism is the normal Christian life. Some of us think extremism is somebody who has gone off down the wrong trail. While it appears that these two defintions of extremism disagree with eachother, the people using them may not actually be disagreeing.

I believe the perfect life that Jesus lived is THE example and all of us are called to walk exactly as He did. "be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" "be holy for I am holy" "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked", etc, etc...

Living exactly as Jesus did is the normal Christian life. Some people call this extreme. I like to call it normal. The standard.

Meanwhile, some think that extremism means that you have gone off in some way that is unbiblical. George mentioned several of them. He called them "tangents"-- dead end streets.

Do you see how we are confusing this dicussion with two different meanings of the word "extremism"?

Anyways, I'm not against holiness-- nor am I against the doctrine of Christian perfection. Nor am I against living exactly like Jesus did. Neither is George Verwer. This is what we should be doing. Call this extreme if you want, (and some people will call it extreme, only because they are used to a lower standard that they think is normal-- but is really sub-normal) -- This is the normal Christian life, walking as Jesus walked.

I am not against this. George is not against this... George is against this second defintion of extremism, the tangents. This is where we need balance.

Quote:
If people think you go a little too far, your probably doing alright.


You could very well be right-- But just be careful. People do not have to think you are going too far to be a sign that you are living the Christian life. From time to time of course it's bound to happen. But it is not something that one should aim for or use to measure their holiness, rightness, Jesusness-- You know what I mean?


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Combat Chuck

 2006/4/5 1:23Profile
Combat_Chuck
Member



Joined: 2006/1/27
Posts: 202


 Re:

Here's the article that was reffered to by somebody earlier, "[url=http://www.deerparkwashingtondisciples.net/believers/legalism.html]Holiness Is Not Legalism[/url]" by John Wesley

I thought it was good! :-)


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Combat Chuck

 2006/4/5 1:51Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: the pendulum or the plumb line

It’s about the pendulum vs the plumb line. The plumb line is God’s perfect standard in all things. A plumb line doesn’t swing, but a pendulum does.

In the Old Testament, the plumb line referred to God's immovable, unchangeable standard for Israel. Living by this standard would protect them from harming themselves, and also keep them close to God. God declared, “I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plumb line.” sa 28:17 In other words, God measured the success of his people according to his fixed standards. Sadly, Israel got completely out of plumb. So God said, I am setting a plumb line among my people Israel; I will spare them no longer.” Amos 7:7 Because they refused to center their lives on God's plumb line, they reaped the consequence and experienced tough times.

When people don’t rest in Christ, God’s plumb line, they may dedicate all their energy to seeking what they believe is the most right, most wise way in order to stay on top. Their minds become preoccupied with thoughts about their need to be right, and a craving to make others see and follow the "right" way. They want to push the pendulum to one side as far as they can - no matter what the cost to themselves or anyone else. Perhaps that is why King Solomon said,

"Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise -
why destroy yourself?
Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool -
why die before your time?
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other.
The man who fears God will avoid all extremes." Ecc. 7: 16 - 18

The far side of the pendulum is an unstable place to be. Life will always feel insecure, filled with fear and mistrust. This is a foolish way to live. We end up making enemies of our friends, our neighbor, our brothers, our fellow worshippers. Relationships turn cold and distant. They even turn into court battles. This is too high a price to pay for our craving to remain on top. No wonder the apostle Paul said, “Why not rather be wronged?" 1 Cor. 6:7

Diane


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Diane

 2006/4/5 6:28Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:

Sis D wrote;
"I suppose we can make “extremist” mean a positive virtue – like Jesus was an extremist. But I think we need to dress this word in its original context in Verwer’s message, rather then just extract it and then use it bare-naked. I feel we need to respect the spirit of Verwer’s message, and the burden that Combat Chuck is carrying. Some of the comments on the thread, to me, seem to suggest a tangent veering off from that. And in the process the punch of the message has been lost. And so has the burden."


Yikes, i guess i did approach this from a more personal view than i should have ... i didn't mean to veer off and diminish Combat Chuck's burden or the punch of the message ... :-o

Thanks sis D for setting me straight ... :-D

Blessings in Christ,

Bro R

 2006/4/5 9:28Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Prone to Wander

Rahman wrote:

Quote:
Yikes, i guess i did approach this from a more personal view than i should have ... i didn't mean to veer off and diminish Combat Chuck's burden or the punch of the message ...



I doubt that this tendency to veer into our own creative thinking is unsual for any of us. It's just that it's hard to see we are doing it. I see this as just part of human nature - and perhaps quite harmless for the most part. It could lead to some wonderful new ideas.

This makes me realize how easy it is to stray off the plumb line, and not know it, because it feel so right. I have often prayed, and will continue to pray the words from the hymn, "Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing"

O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I'm constrained to be!
Let thy goodness, like a fetter,
Bind my wandering heart to Thee.
Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here's my heart, O take and seal it;
Seal it for Thy courts above.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/4/5 16:22Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren
it seems the balance required in the Faith is in recognizing the seasons. there is a time to war and a time to rest, a time to sow and reap and so on. i pray that in in the seeking of this balance that the quest doesn't degenrate to lukewarmness coz that is the worst thing to be. we should be full tilt for God at all times. i suppose for those who aren't full tilt that may appear to be extremism (this is being used in a different way than the original context of the word in this discussion) but the Lord took the matter of our salvation seriously enough to require a perfect sacrifice in Christ so we should take the Faith in all seriousness even unto death.

balance is essential in working for God and this balance comes from following the leadings of the Lord's Holy Spirit, who knows and does only the will of God. there are times to work and times to rest and recouperate for the next work.

i pray that in seeking balance we don't confuse that with and/or become lukewarm.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/4/8 12:02Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3301
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

Graftedbranc wrote:
Quote:
Good point... Maybe the question becomes, "Whose" 'balance'?



Amen, one man's "balance" is another man's "extreem".
Graftedbranch



Ah, you nailed it perfectly! you get 5 gold stars for the best quote, of the decade, now if I could just get some bumper stickers printed up and stick these on all the cars at Church that would be one good Sunday sermon in itself. :-P


_________________
Bill

 2006/4/8 12:20Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:

Hi all ...

Our Lord has been ministering to me via this thread, especially out of sis D's post "the pendulum or the plumb line" ...

It seems that Eccl. 7:16-18 is as untouched sermonwise as Rom. 9 & Luke 16: 1-13, but here are three that have been of benefit to me ... Especially the first one, in that He surely does have me at this time in "a painful learning process" ...

A painful learning process - Ecclesiastes 7:15-29
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=42005163511

The Way of Escape - Ecclesiastes 7:15-18
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=&sermonID=660418253

(Through The Bible) Ecclesiastes 7-12 by Chuck Smith - Ecclesiastes7-12
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6339

Blessings in Christ Jesus! :-D

 2006/4/12 11:07Profile





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