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Discussion Forum : General Topics : has the church replaced israel

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4788


 Re:

Brother Ron,

Your right, that whole thought I wrote was garbage.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/14 18:08Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
If one holds to the thought that the gentile church has replaced Israel, then one must also hold to the thought that God will bring judgement down upon the gentile church.


Hi Jeff
Just thought I'd comment that I have never met or read of anyone who thinks that the 'gentile church has replaced Israel'. It's a new concept for me, as indeed is the whole idea of a 'gentile church'. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/14 16:37Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

I've begun reading the T Austin-Sparkes, The Holy City. This is a quote in the beginning:

Quote:
The judgment upon this world began at Jerusalem, and then it came upon the Roman Empire, and upon Rome itself. The time was not far ahead when great and wonderful imperial Rome would be devastated. From all its wealth, its luxury and its plenty it was reduced to famine and pestilence, and the economic situation became so bad that the most wealthy people were begging for food. And so you read in this book of these pestilences, famines and wars, and all these conditions which were coming upon the world. The judgments of God upon this world were beginning - and who shall say that those judgments are not beginning in our world today? We leave that for the present.



We see the judgements all around us. The Scripture comes to mind where Paul refers to the Jew first and then the gentile. Likewise as Sparks comments, Jerusalem was destroyed around 70 AD. Yet look back, Jerusalem was destroyed in the OT as well. Afterward, the gentile nation also were judged. See the books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

Now look to today. Yesterday I saw an article on the Paralympics. Israel has dominated the olympic games which are set aside for those with physical infirminties. Jews who have lost arms and legs as soldiers now compete in these paralympics.

I say all of this to say that Scripture repeats the ordinances and precepts of God. What we sometimes label as a shadow and apply the thought that this precept did not exist at some point in time but was foretelling of something to come, I believe this may be in most cases be an error on our part. I believe the Scriptures point to an ongoing work of God which is repeated generation after generation.

So I believe God will judge Israel again along with the gentiles. If one holds to the thought that the gentile church has replaced Israel, then one must also hold to the thought that God will bring judgement down upon the gentile church. If one concludes this then there is a conflict with God's promise that the true believer is saved from the wrath of God through salvation that comes through Jesus Christ.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/14 15:32Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Do you believe that the church you spoke of that existed in the OT were the faithful and thus not those who Jesus lamented over when He cried, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem...


The church of Israel/Jehovah was a visible congregation of people bound together by the mutual covenant of Sinai. Within this there was a remnant who who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. (Rom 4:12 KJV) These were the unbroken off branches and at the last are found to be part of 'all Israel' who shall be saved.

I think the Jerusalem that Christ wept over was the chief city of those who began well as the Sinai people; Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown. Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD. Hear ye the word of the LORD, O house of Jacob, and all the families of the house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and are become vain? (Jer 2:1-5 KJV) Here Jerusalem is plainly the same as the Sinai people.

I think Jerusalem is sometimes used in the way of our modern usage when we say 'Washington and London are of one mind on the invasion of Iraq'. We are not just talking of the capital cities but the 'head' determines the stance of the body. Hence, His weeping was not for the city alone but for the whole people whose head it was. I think the Jer 2 and Ezek 16 are to be understood in this way.

Lars has just begun a T Austin-Sparkes series called The Holy City. I know the piece and I think it will be very relevant to this theme as it progresses. Austin Sparkes regarded the Church as God's New Israel.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/10 11:04Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

"I'm not sure what you mean by this. As the Son made flesh the time period would include his several visits to Jerusalem; those before his public ministry and those after it. As God Himself his longings for Jerusalem were from its very beginnings. [Ezek 16]"

I believe Jesus was refering to Israel from the time of Moses to the time He said this prior to His death on the cross. Jesus speaks of the [b]children of Israel, those who rejected the prophets[/b]. The children of Israel speaks of the generations that lived over the span of 1300 years. Jesus says in this verse, that He had often sought to gather them under his care. Yet most were not willing. But we also know that there were some that were faithful. Do you believe that the church you spoke of that existed in the OT were the faithful and thus not those who Jesus lamented over when He cried, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem...

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/10 10:47Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I ask this, to what time period is Jesus refering too, when He cries over Jerusalem?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

I'm not sure what you mean by this. As the Son made flesh the time period would include his several visits to Jerusalem; those before his public ministry and those after it. As God Himself his longings for Jerusalem were from its very beginnings. [Ezek 16]


Quote:
P.S. Brother Ron, I was hoping that you would continue to develop your idea of two churches, one under the covenant of Mount Sinai and the other under the heavenly Jerusalem.

There are many aspects of this which could be developed. The fact that each church had a unique mediator and a single high priest are examples. The Jews believe that Pentecost was anniversary of the giving of the law; the first came with fire and a law written on stone. The second came with fire and a law written in hearts. Natural Israel's church was an external entity and everything about it was external; laws written on stone, water used in ablutions, blood sprinkled externally, [Moses word's are amazing in Ex 24:8 'behold the blood of the covenant'. Surely this was in Christ's mind in the upper room, the Spirit's anointing externally on God's servants. Then compare the New Covenant in its internal nature; a law written on hearts, water to drink, blood to drink, the Spirit indwelling and even the anointing in now on the inside; But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1Jo 2:27 KJV)

The Jews saw Christ as a contender with Moses; Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. (Joh 9:28 KJV). The early Christians saw Christ as the fulfillment of Moses own prophecy; This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. (Act 7:37 KJV)

And in many ways the most amazing is a contrast found in 1 Corinthians...
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (1Co 10:1-2 NASB)

in contrast to...
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Co 12:13 KJV)

There are many more... these are just off the top of my head, as they say over here...


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/9 19:25Profile
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 Re:

I have labored threw this thread, and have seen that many of the post deal with results of doctrine rather than pinpointing the cause of this discussion.

I ask this, to what time period is Jesus refering too, when He cries over Jerusalem?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! [b]How often I wanted to gather your children together[/b], as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"


In Christ
Jeff

P.S. Brother Ron, I was hoping that you would continue to develop your idea of two churches, one under the covenant of Mount Sinai and the other under the heavenly Jerusalem.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/9/9 16:12Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
In my understanding Romans 2:28-29 and 9:6 seem to support this view, but then I come to 11:25 it seems Paul is clearly distinguishing between the nation Israel and Gentiles. If we take Israel in verse 25 to mean all believing jews and greeks alike it doesn't make much sense. So is Paul using Israel in one sense in verse 25 and another in verse 26?


Hi Ron
I think he is. I think v26 is a summary to some degree not just of the immediate preceeding verses but from the beginning of Chap 9.

Remembering that it is only men who divided this up into chapters and verses... there are some interesting statements in Romans.

1. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom 2:28-29 KJV)
This redefines the word 'Jew'.

2. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Rom 9:6-7 KJV)
This redefines the word 'Israel'.

3. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Rom 9:24-26 KJV)
'my people' is now Jew and Gentile, indistinguishably the 'children of the living God'

4. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (Rom 9:27 KJV)
Introduces the concept of the remnant who become the carriers of the seed and promise.

5. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Rom 10:1 KJV)
Although he has redefined Israel, he is using Israel here as of 'Israel ...according to the flesh.

6. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Rom 10:9-13 KJV)
Salvation is by faith without distinction.

7. I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew... (Rom 11:1-2 KJV)
This is almost ironic in that it was the opposite way around as was seen in the previous verses 10:21.

8. But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. (Rom 11:13-14 ASV)
still labouring for the salvation of Israel, who are my flesh.

9. The vine, roots and branches,section
.. is a familiar theme throughout the scripture and was surely in Paul's mind as he wrote these things;
Isaiah 5:1-7, 27:6-11
Ezek 15
Matt 21:28-45
John 15:1-7
all these passages are behind Romans 11.
Matt 21:33, Mark 12:1 speak of a hedge around the vineyard. The greek is the word 'φραγμός
phragmos; from G5420; a fencing in, a fence: - barrier (1), hedges (1), wall (2). It is the word used by Paul in Ephesians; For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
(Eph 2:14 KJV) The dividing wall which designated Israel as separate has gone.

I think the Rom 11:27 'and consequently all Israel shall be saved' is the summary of the whole of this theme in Romans, and in some senses to the whole theme throughout the Bible.

Paul's thought begins be redefining Jew and Israel. It is not the outward, flesh and blood descendent but an inner quality which 'all Israel' have in common. Of natural Israel a remnant has been saved and Paul is praying and labouring for there to be more, so should be all be.

Reading Ezra and noting the switching between Jew, Judah and Benhjamin, and all Israel is, I think, very illuminating. They are synonyms. the remnant has become 'all Israel'. (although the remnant that become the restoration were themselves a remnant of a remnant of a remnant. The remnant is 'all Israel' [Ezra 2:70]

They are not 'all Israel' which are 'out of Israel'. But there is a remnant out of Israel down through the ages which is 'Israel'. added to this are grafted in 'Gentile' branches and the result is a 'whole' tree; all Israel.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/7 9:54Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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 Re:

Hi Bro. Ron,

It makes me think of Ephesians when Paul talked about the Holy Spirit being the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. Whatever an unbeliever suffers in this life is the earnest of their destruction- a sample of what will someday be- to which I have to believe that it is merely for the purpose of turning them to Christ. There is really no other reason to level it upon them I suppose.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/9/7 9:47Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Sin brings with it certain troubles by virtue of how so many sins kick against God's natural laws- but it is certain that God chastises and brings judgment in this life or else the laws of sowing and reaping would be null and void, etc..


Hi Robert
WE have discussed this at length elsewhere I think. There are certainly consequences to sin just as there would be consequences to me walking off the roof of my house, but it that the same as judgment? The laws of sowing and reaping are absolute; the question is 'when is the harvest? The Romans reference refers to 'treasuring up'. So are they getting in now or treasuring it up?


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Ron Bailey

 2004/9/7 8:58Profile





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