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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : INTERCESSION

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Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

in the light,maybe you don't understand the Question,I'm not asking or posting about praying to anyone!!! you have avoided my Question, but I tryed to have a conversation, with some thought provoking ideas. and you change the subject!......... those dead men that you talk about......,are they members of the body of Christ?....... or is this another figure of speach?[color=6633CC][font=Arial]in the light, are we alive in Christ or Dead,when a member of the Church passes? is the Church made voild and it's members in Heaven?[/font][/color]

 2006/3/23 23:12Profile
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

[color=0000FF]I will make it simple because it is,Do the Saints who are in Heaven, do they pray for us,who are on the earth?[/color]

 2006/3/23 23:23Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2730
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I'm not asking or posting about praying to anyone!!!



I believe that your doctrine clearly leads to this in the end. You can say you're not praying to anyone but I've seen the images and prayer cards for the saints, it sure looks like worship to me. If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it might just be a duck.;-)

Quote:
I will make it simple because it is,Do the Saints who are in Heaven, do they pray for us,who are on the earth?



I believe I have already answered this in a previous post in this thread. As I posted before, the Bible clearly teaches that we should pray for one another but, nowhere in the Bible do I find anything that says we should ask someone in heaven to pray for us. The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or anyone else in heaven can even hear us. Mary and the saints are not omniscient, how could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of saints?

Whenever the Bible mentions speaking with the dead it is always in the context of sorcery and witchcraft, activities which the Bible strongly condemns.

It seems very clear that there is a great difference between asking a brother or sister for prayer here on earth and asking a dead person for prayer, the former has a strong Biblical basis, the latter has no Biblical basis.

Only God can hear and answer prayer.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2006/3/24 8:40Profile
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:

Greenquality wrote:
so you are saying..., that when it comes to prayer...,we only pray on our behalf,..and not the behalf of those in the body of the church,.......and that the prayer of the saints in rev, are just being represented as smoke from incence,... and not litterary prayer them -self's just as a symbol or a FIG of speach,...I thought prayer's are like sweet smelling incence To God. show me where the duty or role of the body of the Church,...changes or it's members,when they pass?....... dose the role of the church stop to exist? OR are they =the church alive in Christ,just as those who=church are alive on earth in Christ..... is not praying= Asking,Thanking and Praising.. does this stop in Heaven,



Greenquality, In my understanding the prayers referred to in Revelation are the prayers of the saints on earth, not in heaven. It is also my understanding that the members of the Body that pass before Christ comes again, join the cloud of witnesses in heaven. You should ask your brothers and sisters in Christ here on earth to pray for you, as well as pray to God on your own behalf.


_________________
Melissa

 2006/3/24 9:20Profile
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

why can't any of you answer a simple question,((lets get one thing straight I'm not asking for any one pray for me.))[color=FF0000][font=Arial]I will ask again, does the role of the church stop to exits? in Heaven[/font][/color]

 2006/3/24 17:12Profile
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

[color=0000FF]In the light, so your saying when the bible speak of the dead,that involes withcraft etc...,so when brother and sister pass they are dead...the dead are dead... where is your faith ,what do you believe in a God of the dead? or aGod of living! are Abrahamm, Moses and Isaac dead also?[/color] Remember the transfigration,... who appeared with are Lord?? and talking with Him???... Moses and Elias... (in the light) you believe that the dead are dead so how can this be?? ....how could peter hear what the dead are saying?, he can't!.... because Moses and Elias are Alive and talking!!!

 2006/3/24 17:30Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.



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Phillip

 2006/3/24 19:43Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2730
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
)why can't any of you answer a simple question,((lets get one thing straight I'm not asking for any one pray for me.))I will ask again, does the role of the church stop to exits? in Heaven



Please, lets discuss this calmly and with patience for one another. I believe that it is reasonable to say the answer to this particular question depends on which 'role' we are looking at. For example, one huge role of the church is very clear...
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(Mat 28:19-20)
It would seem logical to me that this particular role of the church no longer exists in heaven. Of course, the Bible is largely silent on the role of saints in heaven other than to mention their praise and worship before the throne.

So I guess the best answer would be that the role of the church does not cease to exist in heaven but it is reasonable to assume the role of the church does change in heaven.

Quote:
In the light, so your saying when the bible speak of the dead,that involes withcraft etc...,so when brother and sister pass they are dead...the dead are dead... where is your faith ,what do you believe in a God of the dead? or aGod of living! are Abrahamm, Moses and Isaac dead also? Remember the transfigration,... who appeared with are Lord?? and talking with Him???... Moses and Elias... (in the light) you believe that the dead are dead so how can this be?? ....how could peter hear what the dead are saying?, he can't!.... because Moses and Elias are Alive and talking!!!



Forgive me but this medium has it's limitations and I'm not sure I understand all of what you are trying to say here. Let me just say that there seems to be some confusion as to what I said about speaking [b]to[/b] the dead. First, by 'dead' I mean those who are no longer walking the earth in a physical body. This would include the "dead in Christ". Now, I cannot think of a instance in the Bible of anyone speaking to a dead saint in heaven other than the strange case of the witch calling up Samuel from the dead at Saul's behest, that is why I mention the witchcraft connection.

Moses and Elijah on the mount came [i]down[/i] from heaven to speak with Jesus [i]on earth[/i]. Also, they are both unique cases I believe. Elijah never died, he was carried body and soul into heaven. The Bible does say that Moses died but then there is the strange and very unique circumstance of the devil and Michael fighting over his body. It is possible he was immediately resurrected after death. Conjecture I know, but possible, and many Jews have the notion that Moses is not dead but ascended. Regardless, their appearance on earth is a symbol to show that Jesus is the end of the law and prophets and I don't see how it can be related to saints praying for us in heaven.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2006/3/24 21:55Profile









 Re:

When a person dies. There is no need to ask them to do anything for you. Because they've received perfection. And probly know your needs before you need them IF they pray for you ;-).

Now, who cares?

Seriously. Where does this lead? Personally, this question isn't a question to really cause us to think. This is to change a doctrine. Weither ours is right or wrong. This one leads to hell. Why? Because it doesn't really promote the Work of Christ. Where does Christ say 'Lets ask Abraham for some help'. That's not leaning 100% on God.

None-the-less. Loving God is our # 1 priority. Then loving others. Why waste time on this meaningless conversation. Is anyone going to walk away from this debate and say 'now I know something, so I'm going to be a radical witness for Christ'. No. There won't be much fruit in this conversation.

So, I'm asking you. DONT bring up ANY discussion that you KNOW are going to cause fights. Why? because that's what a heritic is. Not a person who has 'false doctrine'.

Heritic = divider of the brethren
false doctrine = deceived, not heritic

So, brother. I ask that you refrain from this 'debate'. And seek God for souls instead. This will only produce bad fruit and create stumbling blocks for God's people. And NO ONE should dare throw a stone in front of the Lord's children. Cause the Lord loves His kids and protects them. Just as you would yours. ;-)

I ask that you take this INTO DEEP CONSIDERATION.

 2006/3/24 23:06
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

Joshua, I agree

In Truth if Christ is our new life and we are in Christ, when we die it says we are present with the Lord, and I would much rather Have Christ and the Holy Spirit presenting my loved one's need to the Father than anyone else, dead or alive. If God needs me to pray for someone I am sure He will let me know, especially when He knows what we need before we even think or ask.

Something I have always wondered about is did Moses change God's Mind when he prayed? I don't believe so but the Jury is still out on this one for me. If you think this is another cat chasing its tail, Its droped.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/3/24 23:55Profile





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