SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : HAS THE CHURCH BUILDING SYSTEM TAKEN THE PLACE OF BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY, ARE WE IN BABYLON?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 )
PosterThread
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

As stated, the preoccupation with buildings from both the (in Church Buildings) and self-described (out of church Buildings) groups, is merely an aversion. Has little if anything to do with the building or lack of building believers choose to gather and worship in. I have been in service on the streets, in the parks, in the Nursing Homes, in the Mental Group Homes, in the Prisons, in the Cathedrals, and in the livng rooms. Has made no difference whatsoever, what does matter is:

1 Corinthians 1:23-25

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/20 18:35Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re: church building

Good word brother Graftedbranch.

And so we have Jesus words;

Matt 18:20
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." ASV

As I think brother Daniel was saying when people sense the manifest presence of God there will be revival no matter where it is. Kind of reminds me of the testimonies of the revival at Asbury that were posted on this site.

It makes me hunger for more getting back to the 'heart of worship' than talk of buildings and programs.

Jeff


_________________
Jeff Smith

 2006/3/20 18:51Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

This I believe was posted here on SI back in January. It is thought-provoking, or perhaps just provoking you decide, but worth the read in my opinion.
-tonys

LEAVING BEHIND the "OUT-OF-CHURCH" REVOLUTION -by Andrew Strom.

A year ago I made a public announcement that I was leaving the 'Prophetic' movement - a movement I had been a part of for over ten years. In hindsight I certainly believe that was the right decision, and one that had to be made. Sometimes a public "leaving behind" is important. However, I don't want to be known as the 'Leaving' guy, so I am kind-of embarrassed at having to make another similar statement only a year later. But God has been laying this on my heart for some time. Recently I have been growing more and more uncomfortable with another move that my name has been associated with for many years. -On our website we call it the "Out-of-church" movement, though recently George Barna has taken to calling it the "Revolution". -It is not exactly the same thing, but it overlaps greatly. And as someone who has been a known sympathiser and supporter of this movement, the time has come for me to state publicly that I am leaving it behind. I can no longer be seen to support something that is fundamentally anti-New Testament. Please do not think that I am referring to the 'House-church' movement here. That is not what I am referring to, though I do have small concerns with that movement also. But that is not it.

For the last 20 years I have been involved with a network of people who have left their churches - often to go into a kind of individualistic "just me and God" type of mode. I cannot be party to such thinking any more. The problem I have seen is that a "wilderness" mentality develops - and many people simply live there forever. There is no true "Body Life" and no true "Leadership" - and I have noticed that because of this NOTHING REALLY HAPPENS. For year after year - NOTHING. Why is this? -Because 'Body' and 'Leadership' are utterly essential to basic New Testament Christianity actually HAPPENING. Without these two things we simply do not get anywhere. I mean - isn't that the pattern that we see right through the Book of Acts? For some people the 'Out-of-church' Revolution is "new". But for me it is very old, and after 20 years observation there is one simple thing I can tell you: IT DOES NOT WORK. It does not transition into real New Testament 'Body Life'. It does not lead to Revival. It does not transform the church. It "scatters" instead of gathering, and leads to what I call "amorphous blob" Christianity. -In other words, the Body of Christ becomes an unfocused mass of individualists without form or direction - "each man doing what is right in his own eyes." I don't know if we can find much more of an opposite to true Body Life than that.

A lot of these people say that if we are going to have leaders, then they must be real "servants". Amen! -I fully agree. But the New Testament also states that we need 'Fathers' in the faith (-who bring correction, discipline and teaching) and also true 'shepherds'. In my experience, those who want the 'servants' - without the 'fathers' or 'shepherds' - are often people who have a deep stronghold of 'REBELLION' in their hearts - which they are trying to cover up with high-sounding talk. (-Just as I myself used to do). And that is what this movement is full of: High-sounding talk. You see it in Barna's book "Revolution". You hear it everywhere you go in the 'Out-of-church' movement. Vast claims are being made for those who will simply "come out" - and actually "BE the church without having to GO to church", etc. One would think that "coming out" was the solution to all that ails us. But as I have seen for 20 years now, nothing could be further from the truth. The facts are plain and simple: If your thinking and behaviour are basically "anti-Body" and "anti-Leader", then don't expect to get anywhere. And don't expect the Body of Christ to get anywhere either. We are not designed to be an "amorphous blob". We are designed to be a unified army with leaders and direction and teamwork - taking the kingdom of darkness using "combined force". United together we are very powerful - for God designed us to be a 'Body'. Split apart into "individualists", we are weak and ineffective. And in the Book of Acts, they united under 'LEADERS'. It was 'LEADERS' that were the glue that God used to keep the whole thing together.

-This has simply always been His way. Are you someone who has trouble with the concept of uniting under leaders? -In that case, do not expect to take part in the coming move of God. -Your attitude is totally anti-New Testament. But do I have sympathy for people who feel like 'outcasts' in the church? Do I have sympathy for those who search and search, yet cannot seem to find a church that is biblically sound? -Certainly. I get people writing to me all the time saying they have been around every church in their area, and all there seems to be are 'dead' traditional churches or hype-ridden, over-the-top 'Charismania' churches (and yes, I am Spirit-filled myself, but have to admit that the Charismatic movement today is in an awful mess). That is a huge problem - for where do these people go? The fact is, what Barna is popularizing as a new "Revolution" in many cases is something a lot less. Often it is simply the church getting so bad that many of its best people are being forced out - never to return. Does that sound like a great "Revolution" to you?

The real problem, as Barna himself has stated many times, is that there is a LEADERSHIP CRISIS in the Western church. It is simply impossible to believe that things would have gotten so bad if this were not the case. So what is the answer? -It is certainly not to abandon the concepts of 'Body' and 'Leadership' altogether. That is not an option at all. But there has got to be a "new" way for God to bring order to His backslidden church. I have said many times that what is coming in the West is not just a Revival but also a "Great Reformation". God cannot live with a lukewarm church. He is about to bring great 'change'. And during a Reformation, God always deals with these two issues of 'Body' and 'Leaders'. - He raises up something NEW. So what am I saying here? -Simply that "coming out" is not the answer. Rather, the issue is whether you will "enter in" to the new thing that God wants to do. -That is always the issue. And I tell you, if you have a problem with 'Body' or 'Leaders' then your chances of entering in are almost non-existant. -We simply cannot come into New Testament Christianity without these two things.

I don't know about you, but I have a great sense of expectancy about this year (2006) and coming years. I truly believe we may be about to see some breakthroughs in the "new thing" that God is wanting to establish. But one thing is for sure:- If we are unwilling to either LEAD or be LED, then I believe we can virtually forget about taking part. -That is how important Leadership is, in a new move of God. -It is UTTERLY VITAL. Friends, can you grasp this crucial fact:- The season has changed and it is time to "ENTER IN" not 'come out'. God wants to do a 'new thing', and the real question is whether your heart is capable of entering in and being part of it. Do not be like the children of Israel who wandered and died in the desert because they failed to enter their Promised Land. -Be one who 'enters in'.
God bless you, my friends.

Kindest regards in Christ,

Andrew Strom


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/20 19:01Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Tony thanks for sharing. The article was right on. Lead or be led! But to lead is to serve not rule. To blaze the trail, be the first to engage the enemy, be the first to repent -change direction, is to lead by serving. Would that we all could be servant leaders as Jesus said;

Mark 10:44-45
44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. KJV

When we lead by serving inside a building or in a field people will follow.

Jeff


_________________
Jeff Smith

 2006/3/20 19:31Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
For the last 20 years I have been involved with a network of people who have left their churches - often to go into a kind of individualistic "just me and God" type of mode.



I can't see how a turn to the biblical revelation of the Church which is the body of Christ is any way a "forsakeing if the church"

When we see in the Word of God the reality of the body of Christ, we do not forsake the church, we rather establish it. We cease to adhere to a man made religion of outward ritual and performance, and turn to Christ who is our indwelling Life to be in us the reality of all God is.

We begin to meet with believers as the church in our locality and meet as the body of Christ, the expression of the Triune God in our locality.

There is nothing of "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, but rather the gathering together as the body of Christ, the dwelling place of God in spirit.

Graftedbranch

Graftedbranch

 2006/3/20 20:57Profile
JFEdgar
Member



Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio

 Re: HAS THE CHURCH BUILDING SYSTEM TAKEN THE PLACE OF BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY, ARE WE I

I think one really important question is this; if you take away the building, are you a family? If you take away the building, the meetings, the 'ministries', the systems the institutions, is there still a family that will continue to meet together, encourage, preach, teach, help, give and most of all truly love (agape, not philia) one another? Jesus didnt start an institution, He started a family, a family for all of those who find God to be their Father, Brother, Spouse, and friend.

A hundred mothers, brothers and sisters.

"Whoever hears the word of God and does it, the same is my mother and brother"

If this is not the case, you are not in a church at all. This is the nature of babylon. It may happen in a building, it may happen in a house, it may happen in a christian communal society. All of these have the potential to be false, and just religious. They have the potential to be just a bunch of people who know the right words can say the right things and can hold to (or at the very least, pretend to hold to) the right standards. Just a bunch of people with a bunch of standards that they agree on (whether they be standards of doctrine, or standards of holiness... it is all the same if there is no LIFE!) But if you have fellowship with brothers and sisters who love God with all of their heart, walk in the light that He gives them, are filled with His Life, honest about who they are and where they are at, this is your church. If you have fellowship with brothers and sisters who encourage, help, keep you accountable and show you light; brothers and sisters who listen to you, receive light and accountability from you, and most of all love you and you them, this is your church. One of my favorite quotes about the church is a question "Can you attend a bride? Does someone attend a bride?". Ofcourse not! The church is His bride, we live and walk and love together as that. As His children, as His bride, as His friends and as His brothers and sisters.

These are articles that have encouraged me in this area:

[url=http://www.allathisfeet.com/doihavetochurch/index.html]Do I have to go to church?[/url]

[url=http://www.allathisfeet.com/housechurch/index.html]Community? House Church? NO NO NO![/url]


Joe


_________________
Joe E

 2006/3/20 21:46Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re: What shall we do with the Whore of Babylon?

Quote:

TonyS wrote:
All the attention to buildings, large or small, multi-purpose or single purpose, pews or chairs, blue or green in actuality is somewhat of an aversion to larger issues, and in my opinion the lack of a born-again, new birth experience and preaching of such.



In marketing there is a phrase often used, "There is no such thing as bad press." I agree, there is undue emphasis on buildings etc..., but undue emphasis, whether negative if or possitive, is undue, none the less. Do these issues really distract from the new birth? There are "house churches" and "nomadic christians" out there who are trusting in their "sinner's prayers" to save them, even as we speak.

Don't forget that the people who have delivered the message of the counterfeigt conversion are, for the most, "institutional chuirch" members and pastors. Finney, Comfort, Reidhead, Tozer, Wilkerson, to name but a few, are and were all ordained clergy. Reidhead in Ten Shekel's and a Shirt spoke of "all these things" being "usefull", saying the he was "not being sarcastic, at all". For the most part, we are chasing shadows, when we should be retracing our steps to where it all went wrong (on this note, may I recommend [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9750&forum=40&41"] "The Betrayal Of The Ages", a documentary on the de-emphasis of the 'New Birth'[/url]).

You are correct that the "Church Building Structure" is an addition to the NT pattern, but this sort of thing was fortold by Christ and the apostles, throughout the NT. Paul in 2 Timothy spells out that "in the last days, perilous times shall come, for men will be lovers of their own selves...". It would seem that the last days have been going on for quite some time now. We should be beholding these "ministerial monoliths" as a sign that everything is going according to plan, and get on with the job.

If the present church system is the "Whore of Babylon" then perhaps she is also the "mother of the man child" (which in this senario would be the true church, embryonic in the harlot's belly). If this is true, then we should stay in the "womb" until the "gestation period" is complete, which will occur when it's time for the whore to "push" us out of her birth canal.

Just some thoughts. Their not really my own. I got them from Paris Reidhead's [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1973"]The Hidden Things of God- Part 1[/url], [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1974"]Part 2[/url] and [url="http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=1975"]Part 3[/url]. This series is really good for considering the topic at hand. In typical Reidhead fashion, he goes through the history of the emergance of church buildings, contrasting the "Visible Chruch" with the "True Chruch" hidden within it's ranks.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/3/21 7:22Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

JFEdgar wrote:
I think one really important question is this; if you take away the building, are you a family? If you take away the building, the meetings, the 'ministries', the systems the institutions, is there still a family that will continue to meet together, encourage, preach, teach, help, give and most of all truly love (agape, not philia) one another? Jesus didnt start an institution, He started a family, a family for all of those who find God to be their Father, Brother, Spouse, and friend.



I think that this cuts to the heart of the issue. When Art Katz was in Melbourne, Australia, at a conference hosted by "house church" christians, he told a story of a couple that came to him after leaving their church which, according to them, was bound up in error. They thought that they'd get a simpathetic ear from Art, but he told them that the problem was that they thought that they were too good for their church. The couple went back and publically repented of their arrogance, and the whole church broke into repentance. The funny thing was the conversations after the meeting, with all these people saying, "It's all good for Art to say that we need to go back. He's out of the church system. When he goes back, himself, I'll listen to him on the matter."

The reailty is that the bulk of institutional churches I have been involved in wouldn't know fellowship if they fell over it. To quote Leonard Ravenhill, "Laugh and the church laughs with you. Weep and you cry alone." Interestingly often times it is the youth of a church that tend to meet together and look out for each other. then something happens and the learn to be like the adults, when they get to a certian age and get married and such, and shed such "idealistic notions".

The funny thing is that most "out of churchers" don't realise that they are feeding the problem by allowing a condition to get in between them and showing "agape" love to their fellow Christians. There is a limit to their love, a stage at which it is okay to give up.

However, in spite of this, I have seen love in institutional churches, and I've seen it in house churches. Either way, the Lord will have a remnant. Just don't try to label it. That's the Lord's job.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/3/21 7:41Profile
adonaisarmy
Member



Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


 Re:

I just want to emphasize for everyone that i do not mean specifically by the heading"ARE WE IN BABYLON" that is the church building us being in babylon, that s not what i meant. by saying are we in babylon i was refering to are we in mixture with the world, as i emphasized some areas i had.

joshua

 2006/3/21 23:35Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
LEAVING BEHIND the "OUT-OF-CHURCH" REVOLUTION -by Andrew Strom.



The difficulty with an 'OUT-OF-CHURCH" movement is that it's very title suggest a lack of revelation conserning the reality of the church. One who speaks of an "OUT-OF-Church' movement regards the traditional system to be "the church" and therefore those who leave this system are in this view "out of church".

To say there is a movement of those who leave the church is to fail to see what the church is.

To operate outside the church is to operate independantly. To have our own thing. To be isolated. WE cannot leave the church, but we can live independantly of the church and function as though we are not members of the church. But if one defines the "church" as the traditional religious system, then one can leave it. But the system is not the church.

If one "is the church" and a member of the body of Christ, how can one leave it?. If we are the church, then wherever we meet and whatever we do, the church does.

If we build a big building and meet there week to week, we are the church. If we meet in homes from house to house, we are the church. The reality of the church is not in a place or a building, but rather in the members of the body of Christ who meet in any location as the church.

Believers cannot leave the church. We are born into it by the Divine Birth. WE are living members of Christ. But believers can leave a fallen and degraded and man made religious system which has nothing to do with the New Testament Church.

Amen to those who leave the "religious system" but not to those who seek to live as an "independant Christian. Let the dead bury the dead and the dead religious system bury it's own. But let those who have the revelation to see the reality of the body of Christ be the church and meet as the church and God will have what He is after.

Exo. 25:31 says "And you shall make a lampstand of pure gold. The lampstand with its base and its shaft shall be made of beaten work..."

Revelation 1:12 says: "And I turned to see the voice that spoke to me; and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands."

The churches are lampstands made of gold. The gold signifies the Divine nature of God. And the lampstand is made by beating the gold tegether to form one lampstand.

To be a genuine church, there is needed much gold of the Divine Nature. We need more of God constituted into our being. And we need to be beaten together with others to form the lampstand.

If we are an isolated believer doing our own thing , having our "own ministry", we may be spiritual. We may have gold, but we are not the lampstand. We are not God's building.

IT is not about meeting in a "church building" or meeting in homes. It is about having the gold worked into us, and being beaten together with the other members of the body of Christ to be a golden lampstand. Only then does God have what He is after.

Meeting in homes does not make one the church any more than meeting in a building. A "house church" is no more biblical than a 'steepled building church". The focus is wrong and not according to the revelation of the Bible. The focus of the Bible is on the living members of Christ who are the orginism of the Triune God.

In the New Testament, they met from house to house and also at Soloman's pourch in the Temple. The reality of the church is that they met. The Church meets. One does not go to church, either a "house church" or a traditional church. The Church meets as the living expression of Christ who indwells each member and this alone constitutes the church.

Rev. 3:18 "I counsel you to buy from Me Gold refined by fire that you may be rich, and white garments that you may be clothed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be manifested, and eyesalve to anoint your eyes that you may see..."

Graftedbranch

 2006/3/22 9:59Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy