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adonaisarmy
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Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


 HAS THE CHURCH BUILDING SYSTEM TAKEN THE PLACE OF BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY, ARE WE IN BABYLON?

Sometimes I wonder if im the only one out there at thinks this way. But then I remember the scripture that paul said in

Rom 11:2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life."
Rom 11:4 But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

These are encouraging words.

The whole building issue for the most part, esp in america today seems to really be a huge ego trip, man made kingdom, mans methods, formalistic, waste of money and a distraction. Because for the most part most buildings are sitting empty more than used, and if used, most buildings are much to big 4 the actual amount of people present. They are just empty waste of space that we pay for and maintain,4 what? So we can feel good, that we have a nice big "church" the church is never a building and never will be confined to one.

It has turned into an idol for much i believe in the west, A SUBSTITUTE FOR GOD AND TRUE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM. Thinking christianity is going to a building 1 day a week listening to a man speak. Still the bondage of the doctrine from RMC seeking a man as a mediator man made religion in exchange for a true relationship with God.

The time and finances used in running a building are majoridly wasted this way. I believe the root is a mindset trickled down from the catholic church, and prb much deeper than that. It says that unless you have a building you do not have a church, and unless there is a clergy over it it isnt a church. I beleive this is the sick and twisted doctrine of the Nicolations that Jesus says He hates in the book of Revelation. And that ran through into the Roman Catholic Church and there horrid works of darkness that came from 1 man being in control, and lording over the people. And unfourtunatly much dont know also carried on through the reformation churches and right down into today. This system breeds; seperation between clergy and laity(unscriptual) which breeds Pride, control, formalism, compramising word of God,and the list goes on with those in authority, and those under auothority breeds laziness, undiscipled baby christians who fall into wanting there luke warm, uscriptual christianity loving there methods and rituals, and there ears to be tickled.

In the new testament most meetings of believers all the way through into the epistles were in houses not man made buildings. Can God use buildings, yes, are they wrong in them selves no,
Psa 127:1 Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

Yet It never was the NT blue print of gathering together.
If you logically think of of the advantages of gathering at home; relationships will flurish, disciplship will take place, true intamicy and fellowship much lacking in the common 1 hour church gathering in a building on sunday, not to mention the great time and money saved on not running the whole building, also not having a tax no. and having a building make home churches almost persecution proof. Discipleship should be going on that when the group number gets past 12 or so then a new home group can start, and so on and so on. Chuck Misler from Koinonia House has a really good teaching on this subject called the once and future church, all about going back to NT christianity, studying history, and cleaning up some things that weve been handed down, and seing the vision of the church that lies ahead. It costs money, but if you feel lead its a blessing.

I believe that God desires to dwell in the hearts of men, not in a building. The whole building mentality is this culture, quick fix, 1 hour in out, back to our life, christianity becomes a conveince hobbie rather then a living relationship with the creator of the universe. It becomes and the way the system of it is set up breeds entertainment rather then reality. Keeps Christians in a box, and God, rather then, open and free to go into all the world. Relationship with GOd, the great commission of every believer to preach the good news- discipleship , true fellowship, and worship all these things get exchanged for a endless system of methods,programs, self entertainment all to designed around making you feel good, logic goes "you can be a christian and still have fun!" ie; potluck dinner movie night, entertainment park trips, golfing. Christianity seems to have become a hobby, a feel good christianity, humanistic. Christianity of today is so in the world you cannot tell the diff between the world and it. With homosexual pastors, tatoos, rampant lust, men and women clothing so sensual, fornication, divorce, witchcraft; ciggarets pharmakia, exceptance of harry potter, lord of the rings, santa clause, toothfairy, much music of world esp. Yoga, new age, homo pathic medicines, Astrology, Chinese Astrology-furtune cookies,rock music acceptance of movies that exalt evil, and call evil good and good evil,

House hold idol- Tv-cable-entertainment

paganism mixed with God (CHRISTMAS; (tree- LISTEN TO JEREMIAH 10:1 " Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
Jer 10:2 Thus says the LORD: "Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them,
Jer 10:3 for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
Jer 10:4 They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move."
It was a pagan ritual then in Israels time, and Israel was partaking in it and God way rebuke them to come out or else they will be judged. And we are doing it now in christianity today mixing pagan rituals with Jesus, its sick. If God hated it then He hates it now, and does now desire to be worshiped with man made, demonic, sun god, pagan rituals.
(yule log,santa claus-God of love of money)

(EASTER(Ishtar-goddess of fertility)easter bunny-fertility-sex-goddess-americas cymble-playboys bunny-They are the sex goddess of today) (Tammuz's sun god worship- sacrfice of children)-dying eggs red.

I am not against celebrating Jesus's birth, and ressurection, Im against mixing those memories with paganism, and im against because i believe to God its an Abomination, we serve a Holy God, that very word means set apart. We are not to mix the Holy with the profane. We are told to come out of Babylon not mix with it.

Valintines day- rooted in lust. Example of effects-Kids are trained to date in preschool

Acceptance of Holloween is a big one. If u truly study the roots of these holidays, you find they are totally rooted in paganism, and now matter how much you package it to make it look harmless it still is founded on those roots. If root is evil, the plant will be evil, no matter if it is the most beutiful,tastefull looking plant. Just a little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump.

We must all seriously consider our lives and what we do and why we do them,are they traditions of man,have we inherited lies like Gods people did from their fathers in Jeremiahs day;
Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.
If they wordly we are told to get them out of our life.

We must remember we live in a wicked world, a fallen world that is in utter rebbellion against their creator, no matter how pretty it looks this is the truth. I think we are so mixed up in it we are descensitized to how evil it truly is, and to the compramise and paganism and idolatry in much of our lives. I only see these things because of Gods mercy in opening my eyes, and i am to speak up against these harlotries. We must remember satan is the god of this world, the spirit that works in unbelievers. Everything of this world is not of the Father.

I pray that those that read this would prayerfully and seriously consider the things ive spoken about, if any of these things argrivate you in hearing of them that could be a sign that it is bad, and satan does not want you to give up that thing, so he would get you agrivated and reject it as over the top crazy, etc. Search your hearts, allow the Holy Spirit time to speak if these things are true and any of these things apply to your life. Ask Him to show you anything that standing in your way of your relationship with Him. If you are a servant of Chrst your life is not your own, you are His, and our body is His, we must be willing to renounce anything and everything in ourlives that is contrary to Him. If we ignore them or stubbornly rebell they will blind us and draw us further and further away from Him. As i have renounced these things, i have grown closer and closer to the Lord, and my eyes are opened more and more. May Yahweh draw you all closer and closer to Him.

In messiah yeshua Jesus Christ our Lord,

joshua
P.S
Here is some resources that talk in more detail on these subjects
www.jeremiahfilms.com has videos on many of these subjects.
Alo website and book called to long in the sun http://www.toolong.com/index.htm
And this book called The Two Babylons--By Alexander Hislop


 2006/3/18 16:59Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re: HAS THE CHURCH BUILDING SYSTEM TAKEN THE PLACE OF BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY, ARE WE I

You did at least state this:

Quote:
Can God use buildings, yes, are they wrong in them selves no,



Truth is, if God’s presence by the power of the Holy Spirit was evident in all these “buildings” I doubt there would really be a need for so many of these discussions. If once again it were to be noised abroad that Jesus was in the house, doubtful few would care much about the buildings.

All the attention to buildings, large or small, multi-purpose or single purpose, pews or chairs, blue or green in actuality is somewhat of an aversion to larger issues, and in my opinion the lack of a born-again, new birth experience and preaching of such.

I have nearly grown weary of the current buzz words making the rounds, “institutional” or perhaps “brick and mortar” etc….

What say you..??


tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/18 17:19Profile
adonaisarmy
Member



Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


 Re:

Hey Tonys,

I agree with you that
"is somewhat of an aversion to larger issues, and in my opinion the lack of a born-again, new birth experience and preaching of such. "
If the Christianity is not biblical and is false, then the leadership will be false, the preaching, and the converts.
The things i brought up are only part of the problem the sins,lies, bondage, strongholds that form from the fruit of the another gospel-(the gospel of self, humanistic, do what thou wilt, ticket to heaven, name it and claim it, bloodless, cross less, anti self denial, anti total committed, feel good, unrepentent, no holyspirit gospel) which leads to a false christianity system, and am trying to expose the lies in hope that people will be awaken out of it.

not sure i understand you here
"I have nearly grown weary of the current buzz words making the rounds, “institutional” or perhaps “brick and mortar” etc…."

joshua

 2006/3/18 18:07Profile
TonyS
Member



Joined: 2005/1/29
Posts: 154
Kansas City, Missouri

 Re:

Hi again Joshua,

Quote:
not sure i understand you here ]"I have nearly grown weary of the current buzz words making the rounds, “institutional” or perhaps “brick and mortar” etc….



I am pleased you do not,

Today I have listened twice to David Wilkerson's message "A Call to Anguish", two comments that He said I have thought much about are 1) so much meaningless rhetoric 2) an abundance of those who are good at diagnosing the problems.

Yet so little anguish....

All the problems you pointed out, have been addressed with Christ and Him crucified, the Cross of Calvary. We can bulldoze all the great Cathedrals across the land and instead meet in each others living rooms, and still miss the simplicity of the Gospel, again Christ and Him crucified.
We can remove every Pastor from behind every Pulpit in every Church and still would not have addressed the problem.

If you have not availed yourself to this message, do so soon!!

God Bless,
tonys


_________________
Tony Sexton

 2006/3/18 19:44Profile









 Re:

I dont think there is anything Biblical about the typical structure of a church in America... but I dont think I would call it Babylon. I think it's more akin to the church of the Laodiceans as mentioned in Revelation.

Krispy

 2006/3/20 8:19
adonaisarmy
Member



Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


 Re:

I was not meaning THe church structure as babylon, im talking about the church mixing with babylon.

I'm pretty confident that i am aware of the huge lack of biblical preaching in the world especially in america. That is one one of the things i deff grieve over, but just as equally i grieve over all these things i have mentioned. Paul preached Christ crucified, yet he also wrote many epistles, filled with exhortation, direction guidance, against sin, err, heresy, wordliness, and the like. There is need for preaching the rememdy Christ crucified, yet, people must first be convinced of their disease before they will ever reason the trust in the rememdy. Some believe there saved and there not, there stuck in a system, formalism, im sounding the trumpet agaisnt the worldliness, to come out of babylon, and your false religion, back to the cross, back to christ back to true christianity.


joshua

 2006/3/20 12:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There is need for preaching the rememdy Christ crucified, yet, people must first be convinced of their disease before they will ever reason the trust in the rememdy.



I agree... this is what easy believism and churches like Rick Warren's (author of Purpose Driven Life) are churning out. People who get saved because Jesus "has a plan for our life". Yea, He does... but we dont get saved so we can get in on that. We get saved because we are wretches, wicked dirty sinners who are hell-bound without Christ's blood covering us. You dont hear that preached hardly at all in America anymore. But it's the truth. If someone gets "saved" so they can fulfill God's purpose for their lives, or because they want to feel better about themselves... and there is no admission of sin followed by serious repentence, then they are not saved at all.

Krispy

 2006/3/20 13:07
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Krispy,

One of the major problems with the Gospel as it has been preached is that it is only half of a gospel. We have preached that Jesus came to save us from our sins and from eternal punishment. That is true. Jesus did not come to only save us FROM but To.

Jesus came to reconcile us to the Father. What benefit is there in being saved from danger into nothingness? I'm not talking about benefit to man but to the Father. The Father created man to be in fellowship, in intimacy. Jesus came to restore to the Father the family that He created but lost to sin.

Our first and primary purpose is to know God. This is initimate experiential knowledge not for our sake but for His enjoyment. You are right that we should not be preaching a Gospel of benefits to man, even though it is these benefits (the goodness and kindness of God) which lead men to repentance. We are to put the focus on the Creator and not the creation.

If we preach 'a ticket out ot hell' only, then we rob God of the intimacy that he desires with His children.

Joshua,

Let's preach come out of Babylon but let's tell them where they are being called to go. Let's not leave them wandering in the desert. That is not being rescued.


Jeff


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Jeff Smith

 2006/3/20 13:24Profile
faintnot
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Joined: 2005/12/25
Posts: 10


 Re:

I agree that the first problem of America is that of a falso gospel that is easy-believism and humanism at root. That root, however, is clearly seen in the way that men worship pastors and live to go to Church on Sunday and think they have done their job. Furthermore, it is a gross sin to let the sick and dieing on the other side of the world continue on in their death while we live in the lap of luxury. Do you know why Sodom and Gomorrah was burnt to the ground? The homosexual lifestyle may have been what was the immediate cause listed in Genesis but if you read Ezekiel you will find that is what that they were living in abundance of idleness and multiplied riches while the poor were ignored. Can you think of a better summation of the modern "Church-goer." Most building-meetings are abundance of idleness, living in the lap of the luxury while the poor are neglected.

Furthermore, if those few pastors who preach the truth would bring that truth to the homes of their people as the apostles and men like Charles Grandison Finney did and all the apostles did when Jesus sent them into the cities, then we would see the fruit. Neighborhood revival would be akin to the revival in the towns of many revials in American history. The neighborhood I live, if revived, would have more people in it than many of the towns I have read about in revival. I think sometimes we try to take to many people out for the gospel at once and forget to start with the dieing man next store. If all of us took it as our responsibility to do all within our capacity and cry out to God for revival in our neighborhood we would see revival or destruction. Those are the only two biblical responses to Christ.

May God help us if we do not return ot Biblical Christianity

Daniel

 2006/3/20 16:34Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Truth is, if God’s presence by the power of the Holy Spirit was evident in all these “buildings” I doubt there would really be a need for so many of these discussions. If once again it were to be noised abroad that Jesus was in the house, doubtful few would care much about the buildings.



Fact is, in the New Testament, God's Presence does not dwell in a building. In the old Testament, God's Presence was in the Tebernacle, then the Temple both of which had as it's center the Holy of Holies where the Ark of the covenent was.

IN the gospels Christ Himself was the dwelling place of God. He was the tabernacle of God (John 1 and also the temple "tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up"). And in resurrection His body, as the temple of God has been enlarged to include all His believers as the Body of Christ, the houshold of God, the temple of God and the dwelling place of God.

In the New Testament, the holy of holies is man's regenerated spirit and God dwells in the regenerated spirit of His redeemed people, the body of Christ.

1 Cor. 3:9 says, "For we are God's fellow workers; You are God's cultivated Land, God's building..."

Ephesians 2:21 "In whom all the building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built into a dwelling place of God in spirit."

The concept of the 'church" being a building which people go to is as forign to the New Testament as statues of Mary, the sacrafice of the Mass, and the "holy priesthood".

In fact there was a published study done to determine according to historical references and archeological findings when the first buildings were refered to as a "church" or even as an offical meeting place for Christian worship and if I recall correctly, there is non before the 3rd century AD.

The early church had no such concept. They knew the church was the body of Christ and they were the church. They understood the revelation of the New Testament that the church is the body of Christ and the body of Christ is not a building made of stone or wood, but rather a living orginism of the Triune God, the dwelling place of God in spirit.

Graftedbranch



 2006/3/20 18:11Profile





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