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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Question About the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs

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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimbob

Quote:
Here's a question for you Ironman, if the people over there in palestine that you seem to believe are Gods chosen (even if they reject Christ?)where to recieve the land as an ETERNAL inheritance, how come for the past 1800 years they didn't live on the land, and for that matter why didn't Abraham live there except as an "alien in the land of promise"? If ETERNAL means ETERNAL then why was their residence there so sporatic?



yes indeed the word says that not the fleshly descendants of abraham are jews but those who have faith. The Jews living are still entitled to that land because God promised it to abraham. God told Abraham that the land would not be his but belong to his descendants through Isaac, abraham believed it and received it. they Jews themselves reject Christ because God has dulled their ears and eyes so that the full number of gentiles may be grafted in. when that happens the gentile side of the Church will act in such a way as to provoke the Jews to jealousy so as to compell them to receive Christ. the Jews were kicked out of the land temporarily as they have been over the millenia that they have lived there so this is nothing new.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/20 20:45Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Speaking of dull ears and eyes,

Hebrews 11:9&10, "By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same PROMISE; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God."

ABRAHAM WAS NOT LOOKING FOR LAND! He was looking for CHRIST!

How can you read Ephesians Chapter two and come away thinking God has two seperate agendas for the Church and fleshly Israel? God has made the two ONE NEW MAN. There is no "Gentile side" and "Jewish side" of Christ!

I seriously don't see how you could possibly read Galatians and Ephesians and come up with this dispensational nonsense. What point is having a chunk of real estate and not having Christ? That is what you are saying if you think those are Gods "chosen people" over there right now in the middle east. Are they "chosen" right now apart from Christ? If they do not have Christ they are NOT chosen, period. If the Jews who returned to Palestine in 1948 died without Christ as their Lord, then they are eternally lost, that does not make them Gods "chosen people".

Please reconsider this fantasy that J Darby and company has planted in your head. I sent you a ton of scripture that refutes your whole notion of a distinction between Israel and the Church via PM apparently you did not take the time to ponder the implications of it so I will include the verses once more for your consideration:

Promise made to Israel - Hosea 1:10
Fulfilled in the Church - Rom. 9: 25 & 26
Promise made to Israel - Hosea 2:23
Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 2:10, Rom. 9: 25 &26
Promise made to Israel - Exodus 19:5-6
Fulfilled in the Church -1 Pet. 2:9
Promise made to Israel - Amos 9:11
Fulfilled in the Church Acts 15:14-18
Promise made to Israel - Eze. 37:27
Fulfilled in the Church - 2 Cor. 6:16
Promise made to Israel - Joel 2:28-32
Fulfilled in the Church - Acts 2:16-21
Promise made to Israel – Lev. 19:2
Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 1:15-16
Promise made to Israel - Jeremiah 31:31
Fulfilled in the Church - Luke 22:20, Heb. 8: 6-13, 9:15

“Land” Promise to Abraham - Gen 12:7
Fulfilled in Christ - Gal. 3: 16, Heb. 11: 10, 13 &16
And the Church – Gal. 3:29, 4:28
“Literal” Land Promises fulfilled - Josh 21:43&44
“Kingdom” taken from Jews - Matt. 21:43, 8:12
And given to the Church - Luke 12:32, Jn. 10:16
New Covenant- Jer. 31:31, Mt. 26:28, Lk. 22:20
Old Covenant is obsolete – Heb. 8: 6 – 13
Baptism replaced circumcision – Col. 2: 11&12
We are the true circumcision – Ph. 3:3
Christ is the Christians Passover - 1 Cor. 5:7&8
The Church is the Bride of Christ - 2 Cor. 11:2, Rev 14:4
There is only one New Man – Eph. 2:14 – 16
Not all descendants are Israel - Rom. 9: 6&8 Gal. 3: 29
Unbelieving Jews are “of the devil” - Jn. 8:44, Rev. 2:9, 3:9
The Church is the “New Jerusalem” – Rev. 21: 2
“From above”- Gal. 4: 26

 2006/3/21 2:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:
How can you read Ephesians Chapter two and come away thinking God has two seperate agendas for the Church and fleshly Israel? God has made the two ONE NEW MAN. There is no "Gentile side" and "Jewish side" of Christ!


That alone should convince anyone that there is no seperate agenda. The Church - Jesus Christ - IS God's agenda on the Earth.

Only rightly dividing the word of God will prove this and Jimbob has done that. He is using fulfilled scripture to refute Darby and Scofield, men who have brought in these damnable heresies to sway the church in believing that their are two bodies.

The best things that we can do is to rethink our position and not keep arguing and standing for something that the scriptures speak against. Pride and our grip on traditions of men have kept us from seeing the whole picture. As long as we continue to see Israel as a seperate class of people that is not connected to the Church, and are special in the eyes of God, we are divided.

We must come back to believing in what the word of God says regardless of what these men have taught our fore fathers.

What the church is actually doing is bowing down to Israel and bowing out. She feels that her hour is come to be gone and Israel is going to pick up where she left off. God help us.

The church is here to stay, the kingdom of God is in us, if we are looking to see a phsical kingdom, Christ said it would not come by oberservation. So lets forget about trying to see it.



 2006/3/21 6:52
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimbob



Quote:

jimbob wrote:
Speaking of dull ears and eyes,

Hebrews 11:9&10, "By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same PROMISE; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God."

ABRAHAM WAS NOT LOOKING FOR LAND! He was looking for CHRIST!

How can you read Ephesians Chapter two and come away thinking God has two seperate agendas for the Church and fleshly Israel? God has made the two ONE NEW MAN. There is no "Gentile side" and "Jewish side" of Christ!

I seriously don't see how you could possibly read Galatians and Ephesians and come up with this dispensational nonsense. What point is having a chunk of real estate and not having Christ? That is what you are saying if you think those are Gods "chosen people" over there right now in the middle east. Are they "chosen" right now apart from Christ? If they do not have Christ they are NOT chosen, period. If the Jews who returned to Palestine in 1948 died without Christ as their Lord, then they are eternally lost, that does not make them Gods "chosen people".

Please reconsider this fantasy that J Darby and company has planted in your head. I sent you a ton of scripture that refutes your whole notion of a distinction between Israel and the Church via PM apparently you did not take the time to ponder the implications of it so I will include the verses once more for your consideration:

Promise made to Israel - Hosea 1:10
Fulfilled in the Church - Rom. 9: 25 & 26
Promise made to Israel - Hosea 2:23
Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 2:10, Rom. 9: 25 &26
Promise made to Israel - Exodus 19:5-6
Fulfilled in the Church -1 Pet. 2:9
Promise made to Israel - Amos 9:11
Fulfilled in the Church Acts 15:14-18
Promise made to Israel - Eze. 37:27
Fulfilled in the Church - 2 Cor. 6:16
Promise made to Israel - Joel 2:28-32
Fulfilled in the Church - Acts 2:16-21
Promise made to Israel – Lev. 19:2
Fulfilled in the Church - 1 Pet. 1:15-16
Promise made to Israel - Jeremiah 31:31
Fulfilled in the Church - Luke 22:20, Heb. 8: 6-13, 9:15

“Land” Promise to Abraham - Gen 12:7
Fulfilled in Christ - Gal. 3: 16, Heb. 11: 10, 13 &16
And the Church – Gal. 3:29, 4:28
“Literal” Land Promises fulfilled - Josh 21:43&44
“Kingdom” taken from Jews - Matt. 21:43, 8:12
And given to the Church - Luke 12:32, Jn. 10:16
New Covenant- Jer. 31:31, Mt. 26:28, Lk. 22:20
Old Covenant is obsolete – Heb. 8: 6 – 13
Baptism replaced circumcision – Col. 2: 11&12
We are the true circumcision – Ph. 3:3
Christ is the Christians Passover - 1 Cor. 5:7&8
The Church is the Bride of Christ - 2 Cor. 11:2, Rev 14:4
There is only one New Man – Eph. 2:14 – 16
Not all descendants are Israel - Rom. 9: 6&8 Gal. 3: 29
Unbelieving Jews are “of the devil” - Jn. 8:44, Rev. 2:9, 3:9
The Church is the “New Jerusalem” – Rev. 21: 2
“From above”- Gal. 4: 26




as the Lord leads i will review what you wrote in the p.m. like i told you in my replyi wanted to say something about the spirit in which you wrote to me which disturbed me and disturbs me still.

may the Lord expose and rebuke whichever one of us is wrong and correct us to His glory. at this point in time i am convinced that there is purpose in some of the Jews returning to the homeland. noone can argue with that. i guess it remains to be seen exactly.

see zechariah chapt 8

[b]7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west F20 country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.[/b]

it seems to me that the Lord still has some agenda for the Jews and somehow it involves us. we've yet to provoke them to jealousy so as to cause them to repent and be grafted back into the tree. now i know that every jew who died without Christ after He came is going to be in hell so i'm well aware of that.

and this from Zechariah 12

[b]9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei F41 apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.[/b]

this one whom they have pierced and are mourning for is Christ. we know already that Christ was pierced for our sins but the Jews have yet to come to realize that en masse and this is what will happen when they do so still, there is something else going on here which is for them specifically because they as yet don't know the Lord to be the Messiah as we do.

and this is zechariah 13

[b]7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.[/b]

2/3 of the Jews will be killed and the remaing 1/3 will then be tried by fire. we will also be tried by fire but i believe that in the time in which the 1/3 are tried by fire we the gentile church will come to their aid.

and then this in Zechariah 14

[b]1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; F44 for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.[/b]

this is also mentioned in the revelation. the gentile nations will rise up against Jerusalem and Israel. Now note that Zechariah is speaking to the Jews only as God led Him to. now there will be gentiles living in Jerusalem at the time i'm sure (as there are now) but the nations will be coming up against the Jews specifically and no doubt the gentile church will be greatly affected too in these days.

more from Zech 14 with details on the attack on Jerusalem by the gentile nations, by the way these are the gentiles who don't know God and are led by the enemy to do this.



[b]8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former F45 sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned F46 as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah F47 also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.[/b]

[b]16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment F48 of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells F49 of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.[/b]

this to me is the 1000 yr reign of Christ in which the enemy is bound in the abyss and will not be able to tempt anyone. this is perfect peace and yet somehow it seems as though some nations will be disobedient (not sure how or why) as evidenced by the threats of no rain falling in the event that people don't come to keep the feast of the tabernacles.

it seems to me brethren that there is a purpose being served in this distinction between Jew and gentile on this side even though we are 1 tree. bro Jimbob let me use the example of predestination and free will. the 2 are 1 really in serving the purposes of God, they seems mutually exclusive on this side but in wrestling with that issue the Lord used you and some others to let me know what the deal was. just like it seems mutually exclusive that there be a distinction between Jew and Gentile and the promises to both peoples and the fact that we are 1 people, 1 tree in Christ, this serves a purpose for God's plan on this side. i'm unsure why the Lord has it so exactly but i know that it is for His own good pleasure. The Lord is sovereign and it seems to me that He has made this distinction because it pleases Him to exercise His sovereignty.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/21 11:38Profile
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Ironman,

I wish you would follow Peter,Paul and the New Covenant in the proper method of interpreting Old Covenant prophecy.I gave you numerous examples of promises made to a specific people Israel, and how Peter and Paul reinterpreted and reapplied them to Christ and the Church. Follow Peter and Paul and reject Darby.

 2006/3/21 13:23Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Jimbob
who's Darby? :-?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/21 13:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:
at this point in time i am convinced that there is purpose in some of the Jews returning to the homeland


Oy Vey :-?

 2006/3/21 16:07









 Re: Who is Darby??

John Nelson Darby, (November 18, 1800 - April 29, 1882) was an Anglo-Irish evangelist, an influential figure among the original Plymouth Brethren, and considered the father of modern Dispensationalism.

He recognized that the "kingdom" described in the [Book of Isaiah] and elsewhere in the [Old Testament] was entirely different from the [Christian church]. It seems clear that his ideas were developed in reaction to his disillusionment with the Church of Ireland.

He joined an interdenominational meeting of believers who (including A. J. Groves, Edward Cronin, Mr. Bellett and Mr. Hutchinson) to "break bread" together in Dublin as a symbol of their unity in Christ. By 1832, this group had grown and began to identify themselves as a distinct Christian assembly. As they traveled and began new assemblies in Ireland and England, they formed the movement now known as the Plymouth Brethren.

Darby did not formally declare his separation from the Church of Ireland until 1832, at the Powerscourt Conference, an annual meeting of Bible students organized by his friend, the wealthy widow Lady Powerscourt (Theodosia Wingfield Powerscourt)]. That conference was also where he first described his discovery of the "secret Rapture."

Darby is noted in the theological world as the father of "dispensationalism." He originated the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will snatch away his true believers from this world without warning. Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of [Christian Zionism]. They may have influenced the British government to issue the Balfour Declaration 1917, and have certainly had an effect on United States foreign policy under the presidencies of Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush.

History of Dispensationalism:

Born out of the restless religious environment in England and Ireland in the 1820s, dispensationalism is rooted in the Plymouth Brethren movement, especially the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882). Darby built on a number of themes that were common among the more radical Calvinists in the Evangelical movement of the early 19th century, but he elaborated a more complex and complete system for interpreting the Bible than previous writers.

There is some question as to whether Darby was the first theologian of his time to propose a secret Rapture. Dave MacPherson, in his 1975 book Incredible Cover Up, stated that the idea was first expressed in 1830, in the visions of a fifteen-year-old girl named Margaret McDonald who claimed to have the gift of prophecy and visions of the end of the world. McDonald would often go into "prophecy trances" and write down her visions soon after. MacPherson claimed that Darby learned of McDonald's visions during a visit to Scotland in the 1830s. Whether this was the origin of Darby's ideas on the subject is a hotly disputed topic, because Darby publicly rejected the validity of McDonald's visions. One account of the early Plymouth Brethren attributes the idea of the secret Rapture to an otherwise unknown Irish evangelist named Tweedy.

Dispensationalism was first introduced to North America by James Inglis (1813–1872), through a monthly magazine called Waymarks in the Wilderness (published intermittently between 1854 and 1872). In 1866, Inglis organized the Believers' Meeting for Bible Study, which introduced dispensationalist ideas to a small but influential circle of American evangelicals. After his death, James H. Brookes (1830–1898), a pastor in St. Louis, organized the Niagara Bible Conference to continue the dissemination of dispensationalist ideas. Dispensationalism was boosted after Dwight L. Moody (1837–1899) learned of "dispensational truth" from an unidentified member of the Brethren in 1872. Moody became close to Brookes and other dispensationalists, and encouraged the spread of dispensationalism, but apparently never learned the nuances of the dispensationalist system. Dispensationalism began to evolve during this time, most significantly when a significant body of dispensationalists proposed the "post-tribulation" Rapture. Dispensationalist leaders in Moody's circle include Reuben Archer Torrey (1856–1928), James M. Gray (1851–1925), Cyrus I. Scofield (1843–1921), William J. Eerdman (1833–1923), A. C. Dixon (1854–1925), A. J. Gordon (1836–1895) and William Blackstone, author of the bestseller of the 1800s "Jesus is Coming" (Endorsed by Torrey and Eerdman). These men were activist evangelists who promoted a host of Bible conferences and other missionary and evangelistic efforts. They also gave the dispensationalist movement institutional permanence by assuming leadership of the new independent Bible institutes such as the Moody Bible Institute (1886), the Bible Institute of Los Angeles (1907), and the Philadelphia College of the Bible—now the Philadelphia Biblical University (1913). The network of related institutes that soon sprang up became the nucleus for the spread of American dispensationalism.

The energetic efforts of C. I. Scofield and his associates introduced dispensationalism to a wider audience in America and bestowed a measure of respectability through his Scofield Reference Bible. The publication of the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909 by the Oxford University Press was something of an innovative literary coup for the movement, since for the first time, overtly dispensationalist notes were added to the pages of the biblical text. The Scofield Reference Bible became the leading bible used by independent Evangelicals and Fundamentalists in the U.S. for the next sixty years. Lewis Sperry Chafer (1871–1952), strongly influenced by C. I. Scofield, founded Dallas Theological Seminary in 1924, which has become the flagship of dispensationalism in America. Dispensationalism has come to dominate the American Evangelical scene, especially among nondenominational Bible churches, many Baptists, and most Pentecostal and Charismatic groups.

Prior to dispensationalism, Covenant Theology was the prominent Protestant view regarding redemptive history and is still the view of the Reformed churches. A relatively recent view, which is seen as a third alternative, especially among conservative Baptists, is called New Covenant Theology. Outside of Protestantism, however, all of the Christian churches (e.g., Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) reject dispensationalism.

There is alot more on the history of dispensationalism you can go here for the rest.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism]History of Dispensationalism[/url]

 2006/3/21 16:28
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:
Oy Vey



?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/21 19:29Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

oh i see, may have heard the name before but i didn't know anything of his theology.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/21 22:40Profile





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