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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Question About the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs

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ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7449
Mississippi

 Question About the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs

Modern Arabs say they are the biological descendants of Abraham as do the Jews. After Sarah died Abraham married Keturah and had six sons with her. Gen. 25:1,2. He apparently had more because in v. 6 it talks about his concubines and their sons.

Now the question: Why is the conflict so intense between the Arabs and the Jews only? What happened that this is the case and the others are not involved? (I do have a suggestion, but wish to hear you out).

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2006/3/18 8:38Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re: Question About the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs

Genesis 21:9-21 And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac. And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba. And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

This is where the war started, and it continues to this day, Two great nations, Isaac, Israel and Ishmael the Arab nations. Then Ishmael became the Son of Abraham and Allah blessed him and he Ishmael was put on the altar and God intervened with a sacrifice of His own and Ishmael became the beginning of all Moslems by Abraham. Who was sacrificed Ishmael or Isaac, or both?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/3/18 15:36Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7449
Mississippi

 Re:

Quote:
This is where the war started, and it continues to this day, Two great nations, Isaac, Israel and Ishmael the Arab nations. Then Ishmael became the Son of Abraham and Allah blessed him and he Ishmael was put on the altar and God intervened with a sacrifice of His own and Ishmael became the beginning of all Moslems by Abraham. Who was sacrificed Ishmael or Isaac, or both?

And this is what both groups claim...this is their argument.

My question was that with all the sons Abraham hadm why do we hear only of two lines today? In the srcripture you quoted God promised Hagar he would make a great nation out of Ishmaels descendants. But whould that promise alone be adequate enough to explain what we sse today? Gen. 17: 18-20:
18: And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19: And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20: And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Here we see Abraham specifically asking God to bless Ishmael and so God compiled, v. 20: 'And as for Ishmael, I have heard you..."

I guess my question/point is would God have made Ishmael as great if Abraham had not asked for it? God had told him it would be through Sarah his seed would come.

Sarah is often criticised because she took matters in to her own hands in order to produce an heir. While this is true and lamentable, was not Abraham also amiss in asking God to bless this son?

So what is the point? it seems to me we too often in our ignorance ask God to bless something that is not in his perfect will which will then create a mess for others in the future. So then it would be in our best interest to be careful who we ask God to bless.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2006/3/18 21:52Profile
Greenquality
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Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

This is where every one goes astray........, or get their facts wrong and history......the Muslims faith did not start, or have beginnings with ishmael!........ it was mohomad spelling off--- IN 7 A.D.he lived in a cave alone.....he had bad fits and seizer ..........,and heard voices in his head........ which he claimed to be god speaking to him.............,which he started a movement in keeping a corrupt oral tradtation and finaly in 600A.D.......... it was put to a book! ......their god is not our God,........... even they say it is,it is a lie!........ many christain don't know the truth of this matter!

 2006/3/19 11:54Profile
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

I just read a report that only 10% of arabs are muslim in faith, whats interesting is that they trace their prophets back to adam,after adam the spelling get wierd almost the same spelling,as the ungodly line of cain.when trying to match the true prophets of the old teatament.I will post back with the list and compare it to the old testament

 2006/3/19 14:25Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3693
Ca.

 Re:

From the Quran:


Abraham invoked Almighty Allah thus: "O Our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley with no cultivation, by Your Sacred House (the Ka'ba at Mecca); in order, O our Lord, that they may offer prayers perfectly (Iqamat as salat) so fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and O Allah provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks. O our Lord! Certainly, You know what we conceal and what we reveal. Nothing on the earth or in the heavens is hidden from Allah." (Ch 14:37-38)

Ibn Abbas narrated: "The first lady to use a girdle was the mother of Ishmael. she used a girdle so that she might hide her tracks from Sarah (by dragging it). Abraham brought her and her son Ishmael while she was suckling him to a place near the Kaba under a tree on the spot of ZamZam at the highest place in the mosque. During those days there was nobody in Mecca, nor was there any water so he made them sit over there and placed near them a leather bag containing some dates and a small water skin containing some water and set out homeward. Ishmael's mother followed him saying: "O Abraham! Where are you going, leaving us in this valley where there is no person whose company we may enjoy, nor is there anything to enjoy?" she repeated that to him many times, but he did not look back at her. Then she asked him : "Has Allah ordered you to do so?" He said: "Yes." She then said: "Then HE will not neglect us," and returned while Abraham proceeded onwards. On reaching the Thaniya where they could not see him, he faced the Kaba and raising both hands, invoked Allah saying the following prayers: "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Your Sacred House (Kaba at Mecca) in order, O our Lord that they may offer prayer perfectly. So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and O Allah provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks." (Ch 14:37)

Ibn Abbas's narration continued; "Ishmael's mother went on suckling Ishmael and drinking from the water (she had) When the water in the water skin had been used up, she became thirsty and her child also became thirsty, She started looking at him (Ishmael) tossing in agony. She left him, for she could not endure looking at him, and found that the mountain of As-Safa was the nearest mountain to her on that land. she too on it and started looking at the valley keenly so that she might see somebody, but she could not see anybody. Then she descended for As Safa and when she reached the valley, she tucked up her robe and ran in the valley like a person in distress and trouble till she crossed the valley and reached the mountain of Al Marwa. There she stood and started looking expecting to see somebody, but she could not see anybody. she repeated that running between Safa And Marwa seven times."

The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "This is the source of the tradition of the Sa'y (rituals of the hajj, pilgrimage) the going of people between them (As-Safa and Al-Marwa). When she reached Al Marwa (for the last time) she heard a voice and she asked herself to be quiet and listened attentively. She heard the voice again and said: "O whoever you maybe! You have made me hear your voice; have you got something to help me?" And behold! She saw an angel at the place of Zam zam, digging the earth with his heel (or his wing) till water flowed from that place. She started to make something like a basin around it, using her hand in this way, and started filling her water skin with water with her hands and the water was flowing out water she had scooped some of it."

The Prophet (pbuh) added: "May Allah bestow mercy on Ishmael's mother! Had she let the zam-zam flow without trying to control it, or had she not scooped from that water to fill her water skin, Zam zam would have been a stream flowing on the surface of the earth."

The Prophet (pbuh) continued: "Then she drank water and suckled her child. The angel said to her: "Don't be afraid of being neglected, for this is the House of Allah which will be built by this boy and his father, and Allah never neglects His people." The House (Kaba) at that time was on a high place resembling a hillock, and when torrents came, they flowed to its right and left.

"She lived in that way till some people from the tribe of Jurhum or a family from Jurhum passed by her and her child as they (the Jurhum people) were coming through the way of Kada. they landed in the lower part of Mecca where they saw a bird that had the habit of flying around water and not leaving it. they said: "this bird must be flying around water, though we know that there is no water in this valley." They sent one or two messengers who discovered the source of water and returned to inform them of the water. SO they all came towards the water. Ishmael's mother was sitting near the water. They asked her: "Do you allow us to stay with you?" She replied: "Yes, but you will have no right to possess the water." They agreed to that. Ishmael's mother was pleased with the whole situation, as she used to love to enjoy the company of the people, so they settled there, and later on they sent for their families who came and settled with them so that some families became permanent residents there. The child (Ishmael) grew up and learned Arabic from them and (his virtues) caused them to love and admire him as he grew up and when he reached the age of puberty they made him marry a woman from amongst them."

The Prophet (pbuh) continued: "After Ishmael's mother had died, Abraham came after Ishmael's marriage in order to see his family that he had left before but he did not find Ishmael there. When he asked Ishmael's wife about him, she replied: "He has gone in search of livelihood." Then he asked her about their way of living and their condition, and she replied, "We are living in misery; we are living in hardship and destitution,' complaining to him. He said: "When your husband returns, convey my salutations to him and tell him to change the threshold of the gate (of his house).'

"When Ishmael came, he seemed to have felt something unusual, so he asked his wife: 'Has anyone visited you?' she replied, 'Yes, an old man of such and such description came and asked me about you and I informed him and he asked about our state of living and I told him that we were living in a hardship and poverty.' On that Ishmael said: 'Did he advise you anything?' She said: 'Yes he told me to convey his salutation to you and to tell you to change the threshold of your gate.' Ishmael said: 'It was my father and he has ordered me to divorce you. Go back to your family.' so, Ishmael divorced her and married another woman from among them (Jurhum).

"Then Abraham stayed away from them for a period as long as Allah wished and called on them again but did not find Ishmael. So he came to Ishmael's wife and asked her about Ishmael. She said: 'he has gone in sof our livelihood.' Abraham asked her; 'how are you getting on?' asking her about their sustenance and living. she replied: 'we are prosperous and well off (we have everything in abundance).' then she thanked Allah. Abraham said: 'What kind of food do you eat?' she said: 'meat.' he said: 'what do you drink?' she said: 'water.' he said: 'O Allah! bless their meat and water.""

The Prophet (pbuh) added: "At that time they did not have grain, and if they had grain he would have also invoked Allah to bless it. If somebody has only these two things as his sustenance, his health and disposition will be badly affected unless he lives in Mecca."

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/3/19 18:04Profile









 Re: Question About the Conflict Between Jews and Arabs

If the so called Jews would kindly leave that region called Palestine, peace in the middle east would be stablized. That land belongs to the Arabs and they have every right to it. The British put the so called Jews there because no one in the world wanted them. They were troublesome than, and they still are.

Since I do not believe that there is such a person as a Jew who is a descendant from Judah today, I am not anti semitic.

The so called nation of Israel is the problem and she does not belong in Palestine. If she want to take on the name Israel or Jew, she should obey the word of the LORD and continue to be dispersed among the rest of the world.

Someone may argue that the Jew was to return to the holy land as part of fulfilled prophecy in 1948. That is a weak arguement as today there are more so called Jews living in America than in Israel.

As one Arab put it, "We love the Jews, but we hate Israel". And there is a difference. Jews we have lived with for centuries, but to be a nation in this region, that we hate.

 2006/3/19 18:47
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

Quote:
since i do not believe that there is such a person as a Jew who is a decendant from Judah.I am not anti-semitic. say's loveslave

I believe they have every right to that land as God promissied! do you know that Jesus is a Jew, and from the tribe of jadah!.......where are you taking this thread? sound like all of you are fooled by mohammed!

 2006/3/19 19:07Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 huh loveslave?

bro Loveslave you wrote:

Quote:

Loveslave wrote:
If the so called Jews would kindly leave that region called Palestine, peace in the middle east would be stablized. That land belongs to the Arabs and they have every right to it. The British put the so called Jews there because no one in the world wanted them. They were troublesome than, and they still are.

Since I do not believe that there is such a person as a Jew who is a descendant from Judah today, I am not anti semitic.

The so called nation of Israel is the problem and she does not belong in Palestine. If she want to take on the name Israel or Jew, she should obey the word of the LORD and continue to be dispersed among the rest of the world.

Someone may argue that the Jew was to return to the holy land as part of fulfilled prophecy in 1948. That is a weak arguement as today there are more so called Jews living in America than in Israel.

As one Arab put it, "We love the Jews, but we hate Israel". And there is a difference. Jews we have lived with for centuries, but to be a nation in this region, that we hate.




first of all bro that land which the Palestinians are jumping up and down doesn't belong to them at all, it belongs to the Jews, always has and always will. This is in accordance to the Lord's covenant with Abraham in which He said He would give the land in which Abraham travelled from the nile to the euphrates to His descendants forever. Now the matter of the zionist methods of gaining back that whole land is another matter altogether. There will be no peace in that land until Christ Himself comes to give it (save for a 3 and a half yr stretch during the tribulation under antichrist's rule of the world)

The British put them there because that always was their land and they had nowhere else to go and it was time they went home. The Lord determined that it was time for them to come home to their land and it was so. also i'm not sure the Lord said that every single Jew would return to israel in 1948, can anyone shed some light on that. the Lord did say that He would bring them back to their land and He did in 1948 so i don't know where your statement about the Jews having to remain where they are is obedience to God.

i have to ask though, how can one be a Jew (aside from conversion) if one is not descended from Judah? :-? isn't that what a Jew is? also your statement that you don't believe there to be anyone descended from Judah seems an awefully creative way to justify what you know to be anti-semitism. are you tying to convince us or yourself you're not anti-semitic?


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Farai Bamu

 2006/3/19 19:48Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re: huh loveslave?

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
i have to ask though, how can one be a Jew (aside from conversion) if one is not descended from Judah? :-? isn't that what a Jew is?



Romans 9:6 "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abrahams seed, but : "Through Isaac your descendants will be named" That is NOT THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH who are children of God, but children of the of the promise are regarded as seed."

Gal. 3:7 "Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Gal. 3:9 " So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer."

Gal. 3:16 "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is Christ."

Gal. 3:22 "... that the PROMISE by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."

Gal.3:29 " And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abrahams seed, heirs according to the promise."

So NO the Israel of God are not those born of Abraham, but those who have faith in Christ, (having the faith of Abraham). Anyone claiming to be a Jew in this present age and do not have faith in Christ are nothing more than sinners going to hell at best, and the "synagogue of Satan" at worst.(Rev. 2:9, 3:9, Jn. 8:44)

Here's a question for you Ironman, if the people over there in palestine that you seem to believe are Gods chosen (even if they reject Christ?)where to recieve the land as an ETERNAL inheritance, how come for the past 1800 years they didn't live on the land, and for that matter why didn't Abraham live there except as an "alien in the land of promise"? If ETERNAL means ETERNAL then why was their residence there so sporatic?

 2006/3/20 20:03Profile





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