SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : The Icy Wind of Poverty Blowing in the Air ...

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 Next Page )
PosterThread
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Rahman,

Quote:
Sad to say, but true, nothing seems to focus our attention on God like need - especially financial need



We probably see eye to eye on many things, but I’m not so sure about this commonly taught idea.

I believe many American Christians might say “amen” to your prophecy with their lips, yet in their hearts will say “not me if I can help it!” and then run off to purchase "God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson. Their repentance will not be spiritual but financial…they might even practice fervent debt reduction, and tithing and giving. They may seem revived, but axis of their potter’s wheel will still be money.

So we shouldn’t expect that visions of financial disaster (which may actually reinforce the idea that wealth is a central blessing in God's economy,) would produce authentic Godly sorrow. Truly, only the Holy Spirit can open blinded eyes.

For years now I have had trouble reconciling the message that 'Jesus' kingdom is not of this world,' with the prophet’s message that God rewards or punishes earthly kingdoms according to their obedience. He says "Peter, put away your sword," but then gives America victory in war against her enemies for her obedience. He says, "Take no thought for your life, …is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Yet, a prophecy warning “that money will be taken” is evidence that God might want us to fret over meat and clothing after all, and that material wealth is central to His economy. If we say that God giveth money and taketh money away in proportion to our wickedness, how will our prayers ascend to heaven any higher then mere bargains “Cast me not away from thy blessing: and take not thy money from me."?

I know we all understand this, (as Meagain mentioned) but I feel it worth repeating: the final famine is a famine of God’s Word. "Cast me not away from thy presence: and take not thy Holy Spirit from me." All other "punishments" may actually be grace...opportunities to experience the sustaining comfort of the Holy Spirit.

I do not assume that you disagree, nor do I necessarily disagree with the vision below. However, I think even the prophetic eyesight that sees furthest down the road, can always benefit from slightly sharper focus! Financial disaster may indeed be in our near future…but in of itself will do nothing to turn our hearts to God. Indeed, some men will lose everything and curse God. Yet, because of the Holy Spirit, others will see their homes’ lost and their wealth disappear but they will praise God all the more as they gain Christ and increase in love!

Your fervent spirit is always a blessing and an encouragement to me Rahman,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/3/17 20:56Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 loving your heart bro mike

bro Mike

Quote:
I believe many American Christians might say “amen” to your prophecy with their lips, yet in their hearts will say “not me if I can help it!” and then run off to purchase "God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson. Their repentance will not be spiritual but financial…they might even practice fervent debt reduction, and tithing and giving. They may seem revived, but axis of their potter’s wheel will still be money.



i think you have a point here bro mike but look at your choice of words and the order in which they came out (not by chance bro) you said american christians. american christians will indeed not repent truthfully but seek to make their lives secure by their own hand and unsuccessfully so because they are americans first. now Christians Americans on the other hand will be moved to repentance because they see their life in God as first and eventually it will become all.



Quote:
So we shouldn’t expect that visions of financial disaster (which may actually reinforce the idea that wealth is a central blessing in God's economy,) would produce authentic Godly sorrow. Truly, only the Holy Spirit can open blinded eyes.



the visions will not compel many to repent, some will though. however in the midst of that suffering those that would repent will indeed do so and those whose hearts are hard and hardened by God will not. those that would repent like you said will have been moved to do so by His Holy Spirit.

Quote:
For years now I have had trouble reconciling the message that 'Jesus' kingdom is not of this world,' with the prophet’s message that God rewards or punishes earthly kingdoms according to their obedience. He says "Peter, put away your sword," but then gives America victory in war against her enemies for her obedience. He says, "Take no thought for your life, …is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Yet, a prophecy warning “that money will be taken” is evidence that God might want us to fret over meat and clothing after all, and that material wealth is central to His economy. If we say that God giveth money and taketh money away in proportion to our wickedness, how will our prayers ascend to heaven any higher then mere bargains “Cast me not away from thy blessing: and take not thy money from me."?



oh bro mike i feel you here!i've oft struggled with reconciling what goes on and what God says and it made my head hurt. until i realized or rather until the Lord revealed it to me through wrestling with Romans 9, that i am a vessel of mercy and the way in which God sees His plan through is no concern of mine, i simply say "Lord, you know, show me what i need to do for you." who knows the mind of God and has given Him counsel? His ways are above ours so much so that what He does rarely makes sense till much later if at all.

bro mike the prophecy that money will be taken is not for us to fret over it but to make what the word said (and you repeated in your post in the above section)"take no thought of your life" concrete because then we will see the Lord's miraculous provision for His saints. wealth is important in His economy though not central, but the thing with wealth is that it is to be used for the betterment of the body rather than for the receiver to live like a pasha.of course this is not to say we should be careless but see that the Lord's will is done with whatever He gives us.

Quote:
I know we all understand this, (as Meagain mentioned) but I feel it worth repeating: the final famine is a famine of God’s Word. "Cast me not away from thy presence: and take not thy Holy Spirit from me." All other "punishments" may actually be grace...opportunities to experience the sustaining comfort of the Holy Spirit.



oh brother mike and sis annie! this is it, it is better to suffer on this side and be compelled to repent rather than suffer the second death from which there is no coming back. Paul said about that man in corinth who was sleeping with his stepmom that he gave him over to satan for torment so that his spirit would live though his body died. like bro R said this is harsh grace and mercy.

bro mike like yu said (hey that rhymes)some will curse God and others will repent. this will be one of the things the Lord uses to separate His own from Satan's own. for those of us called to be vessels of mercy and charged with the task of bringing in the sheaves, it's about to get busy.

praise God the time has come.AMEN!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/17 22:20Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: loving your heart bro mike

brethren
i was talking to my brother-in-law James (Jimm) a couple of days ago who is in zimbabwe at work for the Lord raising up and equipping saints for the work ahead. Zimbabwe at the moment is in a state of economic collapse. inflation is 800% (it was 600% a month or 2 ago) and increasing, unemployment is about 80% so things are bad. that kinda thing is on it's way here however James brought to mind something i'd not thought about. back home in zimbabwe there isn't as great a sense of national pride as there is here. for james, the Lord is his portion so he's not concerned for anything save for the work of God but he said he couldn't imagine living life back in zimbabwe as bad as it is without the Lord. brethren what about those with such national pride who know not the Lord and will suffer through what is coming?

i was driving on the freeway earlier coz i had to run some errands before work andi saw many people driivng brand new cars and new homes being built and i wondered "Lord how many people will have cars and homes reposessed when this happens." the thought was rather sobering.

for those that would, REPENT, REPENt, REPENT OR DIE!!!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/18 17:05Profile









 Re: The Icy Wind of Poverty (Rahman's thread)

Quote:
i saw many people driivng brand new cars and new homes being built and i wondered "Lord how many people will have cars and homes reposessed when this happens." the thought was rather sobering.

Ironman,

We has this over here a few years ago. Here's what our government did after they picked up the pieces of an unprecedented number of repossessions.... they changed the law to make it less disadvantageous legally and to personal reputation and pride, [i][b]to go bankrupt[/b][/i]. This has come into force recently.

The other thing they've done is ruthlessly to let go manufacturing industry, even to leave some in place knowing they will crash (even knowing some business leaders are making a killing at the expense of workers) sooner or later, but being ready to 'assist' people into training or new, less skilled 'work'.

Everyone here (UK) who has had money to invest longterm, has been putting it into property, and so HMG knows the one thing which must not happen, is a property crash, such as we had ten years ago. This is exercising the best economic minds in the country, because we really [i]will[/i] be in trouble if the property market comes down too fast. While this is happening, mortgages are already out of hand. People are having to choose between having a family or a house of their own.

Lastly, Mr Brown's 'war chest' as it was jokingly called until we really did go to 'war', has been bolstered by his longterm policy of undermining the national pension fund. No-one has said so, but there is definitely a political move to force people to be more dependent on each other or themselves, rather than central provision. Nothing wrong with that as a longterm policy, but they are bringing it in so fast, that some who've paid into the scheme for forty years, are about to be seriously short-changed on their investment. It's the same story.

 2006/3/18 21:26
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis dorcas

Quote:
We has this over here a few years ago. Here's what our government did after they picked up the pieces of an unprecedented number of repossessions.... they changed the law to make it less disadvantageous legally and to personal reputation and pride, to go bankrupt. This has come into force recently.



wow y'all are making it easier to file bankruptcy while here it's been made harder...

Quote:
The other thing they've done is ruthlessly to let go manufacturing industry, even to leave some in place knowing they will crash (even knowing some business leaders are making a killing at the expense of workers) sooner or later, but being ready to 'assist' people into training or new, less skilled 'work'.



government deregulation of industry leading to mass corruption and corperate looting eg ENRON, MCI etc and leaving many without anything at all.

Quote:
Everyone here (UK) who has had money to invest longterm, has been putting it into property, and so HMG knows the one thing which must not happen, is a property crash, such as we had ten years ago. This is exercising the best economic minds in the country, because we really will be in trouble if the property market comes down too fast. While this is happening, mortgages are already out of hand. People are having to choose between having a family or a house of their own.



we have a housing bubble here that people ae riding which is set to burst. people are getting all kinds of financing for homes they can't afford. if you have low credit you can get a no down payment loan for your house with no problem really. then you have this refinancing thing where people borrow against the equity in their homes even up to 125% of the home's value :-o i mean it's absolute lunacy i think.

Quote:
Lastly, Mr Brown's 'war chest' as it was jokingly called until we really did go to 'war', has been bolstered by his longterm policy of undermining the national pension fund. No-one has said so, but there is definitely a political move to force people to be more dependent on each other or themselves, rather than central provision. Nothing wrong with that as a longterm policy, but they are bringing it in so fast, that some who've paid into the scheme for forty years, are about to be seriously short-changed on their investment. It's the same story.



the deficit here has been raised to $9 trillion to accomodate the iraq war and other things. i think by the end of the year at least we'll be in it with iran too...then i know you have heard about the social security issue and how that pot is running low...

our greed and corruption will surely be exposed as will are shallow faith. those who know the Lord will be separated from those who purport to be His in the hard times to come.

for those that would, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT OR DIE!!!


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2006/3/19 15:46Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Here are two observations about the state of mind here in California.

I have 4 friends who have bought houses in the last month. The lowest price is for a two bedroom condo for $350000. Two others have purchased homes in the $450000 range. One other has just signed a contract with a developer to build a house for $700000. During these times I have heard that some have taken a loan that matures in 5 years. They have no down payment. Their particular loan is interest only with a Negative Amortization concept. What that means is that they can't afford to pay the monthly payment on the loan so they are allowed to pay one half of the monthly payment that is only interest. The other half of the payment of interest is added onto the principle of what is owed on the house. So at the end of 5 years, they owe more than what they paid for the house by a substantial amount. These people have to work two jobs, or depend on overtime to make ends meet.

What a way to live!

The second oberservation...speaks to the mentality of people who live in Santa Clarita California. The average price of a house is above $500000. The average credit card debt is $33000.

The people are drunk with wine.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/20 15:03Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Mike wrote:

Quote:
I believe many American Christians might say “amen” to your prophecy with their lips, yet in their hearts will say “not me if I can help it!” and then run off to purchase "God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson. Their repentance will not be spiritual but financial…they might even practice fervent debt reduction, and tithing and giving. They may seem revived, but axis of their potter’s wheel will still be money.




My pastor and I were discussing 2 Timothy 3 the other day. We shared stories of what we saw in today's christianity. We shared incredible stories of people who put their trust in finances. We shared observations of how people have been led to believe that government will take care of them.

My pastor spoke of the example of God's judgment on Egypt. All the plagues sent by God were focused on destroying the idols of Egypt.

Then we looked to our nation and acknowledged the idols of this nation. We thought to ourselves, there is nothing in us that can prepare us for what is coming.

Then we concluded that the most important thing we can do is to point the people to Christ. If Christ becomes the Rock, what storm can prevail?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2006/3/20 15:13Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: The Icy Wind of Poverty Blowing in the Air ...

MeAgain

you posted under ...
Poverty of The Truth

Quote:
[b] If HIS Truth is not first and foremost our priority, second or equal only to Loving as He does, we are lost.

Finances mean nothing to the Elect who walk in the Protection of His Truth.

They need nothing more. His Will is their "meat".

The LORD is their Shepherd, and they have no further WANTS.[/b]

Well that pretty much sums it up ... This goes into my SI Forum "To Keep" folder!

Lord Bless!

 2006/3/20 15:24Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: The Icy Wind of Poverty Blowing in the Air ...


Bro. Mike,

When i stated;
"Sad to say, but true, nothing seems to focus our attention on God like need - especially financial need".

i say this from a historical view as in what i've read regarding the history of the
church/protestantism/Christianity in America, particularly in the past 50 years ... To me the "Go-Go 80's" were pretty much like the "Roaring 20's" - a time of America's creating astronomical wealth in a sea of reckless decadence with no respect to God or His laws, only to have it seemingly disappear in an instance, shocking an entire nation, and the world into dumb-foundedness ... Check out the link below ...


Protestantism in America: A Narrative History by Jerald C. Brauer
http://www.religion-online.org/showbook.asp?title=1663


You may also want to check out;

Chapter 16: War and the Gay ‘20’s (in which it speaks of another gospel called "the social gospel) and ...

Chapter 18: The Problem of Renewal ...


The following is an excerpt from the link posted directly after this if you want to read the whole thing;

Chapter 17: Depression, War, and Aftermath ...


The depression had a devastating effect on the Churches as well as on the nation. In the optimistic flush of the ‘20’s many congregations had built new edifices far too large and expensive. When the depression hit, they found themselves unable to pay. Most carried their huge debts; a few rejected their obligation, thus bringing shame on the Christian Church Colleges and publishing houses, missionary enterprises, and the social work of the Churches were all hard hit by the depression. Many an institution of the Church lost its endowment in the financial crash and had to close or had to drastically cut back its activities.

But the physical effects of the depression were only part of its devastation. It left deep spiritual and mental wounds. It destroyed the utter self-confidence of the ‘20’s, and it gave birth to a despair and lack of confidence. What an opportunity for the Churches to interpret the meaning of this event! Yet, the Churches profited little in terms of growth. There was no surge of a repentant people to the Churches. There was no appreciable increase in the numbers of churches. There was no great revival which swept the nation.

Perhaps that was good. The Churches did not lose members because of the catastrophe; neither did they make great gains. They did seem to grow in their depth of understanding the meaning of suffering and sacrifice in the Christian life. This was no time for an emotional outburst that would sweep millions into the Church. It was a time for sober reappraisal of the kind of message the Church had preached and of its relevance for modern life.

While the larger Protestant denominations were busy with their reappraisal and their ministering to the spiritual needs of the nation, there was one segment of Protestantism that profited greatly by the depression. This was the group of Churches usually called "sects." They stressed the radical, emotional conversion of the sinner and the new life lived in all holiness. They stressed the presence of the operation of God’s Holy Spirit and the rebirth through him; thus, they were called Pentecostals. Some of them spoke with strange, unintelligible utterances, most practiced faith healing, and all advocated a rigorous moral life. Among these were such groups as the Nazarenes, the Assemblies of God, and the Holiness or Pentecostal Churches.

Though the Protestant Churches did not experience a large increase in membership, except for the extreme sectarian groups, they too went through a profound and invaluable experience as a result of the depression. For too long they had preached and taught a rather shallow message which was a watering down of the full insights of the gospel. No age perfectly comprehends God’s message of judgment and redemption, but some ages become so smug in their interpretation of that message that they fail to stand under it. They often pick that side of it which justifies their own wellbeing and earthly possessions.

Though liberal theology and the social gospel contained many valuable elements necessary for their age, they also played into the hands of the age by their emphasis. People of the ‘20’s were convinced that Christianity meant literally following the Golden Rule -- doing to others as one would wish to be treated; that it stood for the gradual building of the Kingdom on earth by men of good will if only men would exert enough good will; and that through friendliness and kindness that Kingdom was slowly being built in America.

Suddenly the Protestant Churches were confronted with the stark reality of the failure of their dreams. Under all the supposed goodness and friendliness of the prosperous ‘20’s were to be found greed and pride. Man suddenly was shown to be no higher on the moral scale, no less selfish than his medieval brethren. In place of a new stage in the Kingdom of God men had arrived at a shattered economy. The consequence was a new look at some old Protestant doctrines that had been largely ignored -- sin, faith, and justification were once more relevant.

Between the ‘20’s and the opening of the Second World War there was a general shift in both the pulpit and the theological schools of America. IT was directly related to the change that had taken place in Europe, particularly among German theologians. It marked the return of American Protestantism to one of its genuine roots -- a deeper concern for the beliefs and theology that underlie action. Over twenty outstanding preachers and teachers wrote short articles in The Christian Century explaining how their minds had changed in the period 1930-1940. Truly a great change had come. Its full significance cannot be assessed yet.

Most liberal American pastors and theologians were not willing to change their liberalism and also retained their social concern. Of course, large numbers, particularly in the South and in the rural districts, had never accepted such a point of view. But some who had adopted liberalism wished to retain its good points while rejecting some of its false emphasis. This was a difficult thing to do and was made doubly difficult by those liberals who saw no need for a change. Nevertheless, progress was made.

Once more American pulpits spoke of man’s sin and selfishness, not just as some temporary condition stemming from physical needs but as a basic pride and perversion in the very center of his will. No longer did one hear so much about the inevitable progress in goodness and the gradual building of God’s Kingdom. God was at work in history, yet also high and mighty, lifted up, beyond history -- the Creator and Redeemer. Rather than emphasis on man good will and good deeds as the basis of man’s action, stress was placed on the forgiveness of sins through God in Christ, the centrality of the cross revealing God’s creative love to which man responded in trust and obedience.

So a shift occurred in American theology and preaching. This was reflected in magazine articles, in books, and in seminary curriculums. Once more, as in the past, theology was becoming the center of the training for the pastor. This really did not get under way until during and after the Second World War, but even in the late ‘30’s there was a move in that direction. What a man believes, that he will do. What are the basic beliefs of the Christian faith? How are they related to modern life? Are they relevant? If so, how can they be presented to modern man? These are not questions of techniques. They are questions of the wellsprings of life; they are theological questions.

- End of excerpt -

The major difference i see in the economic upheaval that's about to hit us is i believe REVIVAL will come out of it, because world events seem to be slowly, and agonizingly making the American public more and more uneasy, and unlike the first Great Depression there's now many a saint/everyman who're locked into the stock market either by personal investment in it, pensions/401K's, or both ...


Bro. Mike you further posted ...

Quote:
"I believe many American Christians might say “amen” to your prophecy with their lips, yet in their hearts will say “not me if I can help it!” and then run off to purchase "God's Plan to Protect His People in the Coming Depression" by David Wilkerson. Their repentance will not be spiritual but financial…they might even practice fervent debt reduction, and tithing and giving. They may seem revived, but axis of their potter’s wheel will still be money.

To this let me say by experience, "No, they won't even say amen with their lips to what i posted, let alone with their hearts" ... Most have already said "yea and amen" to the false prophets who've made themselves spiritual stock brokers and God the big CEO in the sky ... Far to many saints are already hooked into the "seed for personal greed divine dividend scam" which is also shortly to come tumbling down like those daubed walls spoken of by Ezekiel ... So i don't think we have to worry about to many American saints reacting (even w/ alterior motive) to any "word" attached to 1Cor.10:14, and 1 Tim. 6-12 ...

And i doubt very many folk now or then will pick up bro. Dave's book because few saints own up to the signs of these times, and to those who may have bought his book i would re-iterate what i posted first;

Quote;
"Fellow saints i've come to the conclusion that no matter what goes down ... No matter what God has in store for us (for truly He is the only one who knows) ... What we should all want to be, and need to be, is clear before Him in as much purity as we can possibly muster ... Not by our might, nor by our power, but by His Spirit is the only way this is possible ..."

And i said this meaning that if any financial ill is to befall me, tho i've heeded what i believe i've heard Him say for the past 20 years, by my keeping myself ever repentant, ever clear, holding every thought captive before Him, then i'll not have to be wrestling with "have my own sins and disobedience brought this upon me" in the midst of this storm, as opposed to my being able to lift up my head and holy hands towards Him in praise knowing (from Job) that my test is of some service and benefit to Him ...

You continued;
Quote;
"So we shouldn’t expect that visions of financial disaster (which may actually reinforce the idea that wealth is a central blessing in God's economy,) would produce authentic Godly sorrow. Truly, only the Holy Spirit can open blinded eyes."

Ha! ... ha! ... but isn't this already the problem? ... That man, even in the Body of Christ has already set up wealth as the central blessing in God's economy? (tho of course we know Christ is) ... Scripture says that "It is God who gives the ability to get wealth", and it's obvious to me that we're now much more interested in the gift than the Giver ... Wealth has become our chief idol, and as with all idols when it comes to our jealous God with His people, He will knock it down ... If it's wealth that's blocking our vision to Him, then what needs to be removed to unblock it? ... For those saints with the correct spirit/heart/mind set this upheaval is not gonna knock the Spirit of God wind out of our sails, but will fill us ever more to even greater works of love and compassion in Him toward our fellow/saints/man ... As you said, "Indeed, some men will lose everything and curse God. Yet, because of the Holy Spirit, others will see their homes’ lost and their wealth disappear but they will praise God all the more as they gain Christ and increase in love! " ...


And finally (whew!) as to the other God questions you posted, i've been brought to a point lately of where i'm not questioning God much anymore ... So i agree with what bro Ironman has posted, especially coming re: Rom. 9 ... i like you, am a vessel of His mercy to do with as He pleases ... Scripture says, "Whatsoever is not of faith is a sin" and so whatever i beleieve i hear Him prompting me to do, i do ... i don't have to know all of the intricacies, all i have to know is that He's in total control and i'm learning to rest in that ...


Heb.4:[1] Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. [2] For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [3] For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

[b]ON JESUS CHRIST THE SOLID ROCK I/WE STAND - ALL ELSE IS SINKING SAND![/b]

Lord bless you bro. Mike ...

 2006/3/20 15:33Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: UK's National Debt ...

Sis Dorcas ...

i take it you're in the UK ... i could'nt believe my eyes after going to a site Bro. Dom posted showing each country's debt ...

i know ours (US) is $9 trillion now but was shocked that as of 30 June 2005 the United Kingdom's is $7,107,000,000,000 ... The first thing i thought was how much smaller the UK is than the US and it has that much debt ... Yikes!

 2006/3/20 15:56Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy