2 Corinthians 5:14-17 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
((Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.))
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
God made us in His image and in the image of God He made us. I will never be like Christ. I was never created to be like Christ. God knew me before the foundation of the world. He knows every hair on my head. He gave me my personality, chose my parents, knows me intimately and wants me as His son. Being born again I am a new creature and I am in Christ. God wants me to live the life He created me to live. So How does God keep me just like He wants me to be and still be a son in His house with sin that is in me?
Galatians 2:16-20 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
How are we like Christ? Colossians 1:26-28 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Who teaches us this, and who is our TEACHER?
John 14:26-29 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
He has come, I believe it and know He lives in me and I am becoming what God intended me to be, a special flower like no other except me and Christ in me as my new nature and my only life unto the Father.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/3/19 4:41||Profile|
God Bless ya Phillip.
HRM is the Hebrew Roots Movement.
The author mentioned in this thread does appear to have a very large website that leans that way.
The first words to look for would be where it may be said that Jesus or Paul used a "method" of "interpreting" the Torah.
Jesus spoke as the Father gave utterance, not by any "methods" nor [u]types[/u] of "interpreting".
That site has John the Baptist as Jesus' "Rabbi".
Whenever one attributes "methods of interpreting or methods of teaching" to Jesus or Paul, that come from the Rabbi's "methods", they are taking away the direct and [u]divine inspiration[/u] from the words of both Jesus and Paul, causing both to depend on methods. Jesus did not need Rabbinic methods and Paul mentions what he had done with his teachings under them.
That alone does not make a group necessarily HRM, but when they re-incorporate the Law/Torah observance into Christianity as we know it, such as not wearing cloths with mixed cloth, feast day observances being necessary and Sabbath, etc., that's when they are HRM.
They say that we translate the Bible "the Greek way or Protestant way" and that the "Hebrew way" is through "experience and only way".
Actually "experience" leads to "personal interpretations" and that is how the Talmud was written and why the rabbi's who contributed to the contents of the Talmud can contradict each other.
The method of interpreting that incorporates "personal interpretation or experience" is called Midrash.
Most who hold to Midrashic interpretation only, do not condone our way of interpreting Scripture by Literal, Grammatical, Historical means and say that we cannot understand the Bible without a 14 step equative interpretation that only a learned one can use to interpret "for you". So you sort of just have to go with whatever they say is being said in their Biblical commentaries.
Many who have gotten into this form of interpretation have lost the ability to read the Word literally and the over spiritualizing and seeking typologies and symbology gets beyond what even they can bear.
"Midrash minimizes the authority of the wording of the text as communication, normal language. It places the focus on the reader and
the personal struggle of the reader to reach an acceptable moral application of the text. While it is always governed by the wording of the text, it allows for the reader to project his or her inner struggle into the text. This allows for some very powerful and moving interpretations which, to the ordinary user of language, seem to have very little connection with the text. The great weakness of this method is that it always threatens to replace the text with an outpouring of personal reflection. At its best it requires the presence of mystical insight not given to all readers."
Quote a definition from a teacher of ... "Midrash is like a quadratic equation or a very complex second order differential equation, a thirteen or fourteen step equation."
The 14 "equations" Click on Chapter 2 ~
Though some of these type sites won't come out and say the term 'Midrash' - whenever you see that word "method" of interpretation and see the words "Hebrew way or Jewish way", it is more than likely Midrashic interpretation.
Some of these type sites will say in a mocking way "the Protestant way of interpretation" is no good ... only to a point ... and without Midrash, you'll never understand Revelation, just for one.
Sad, because it's put a wedge between some Messianics and Gentile Christians.
Anyhow, that looks like it in a nutshell.
| 2006/3/19 6:15|
I went over the site and agree with you. It is a HRM site and takes away from the rabbinical priesthood Jesus fulfilled in Himself and takes us back into the Law and mixes Grace with it. Law destroys Grace and Grace cannot exist with Law. Grace exists in Love. We do His commandments out of Love because He Love us first when we were yet sinners.
We are not Talmids, we are son's and daughters of God, and brothers' and sister in Christ, fellow heirs to the Kingdom of God on this earth which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" and already in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/3/19 16:46||Profile|
Your not Jesus disciple?? :-(
| 2006/3/19 18:00||Profile|
That site has John the Baptist as Jesus' "Rabbi".
The bible says Jesus came also to fulfill... Im not saying or disagreeing with you but Jesus did have a MOM & DAD too?? Rabbi too??
Lets study the site and not just skim over it and then judge it... I love studying greek & hebrew and the first century culture.
We understand the Jews were law minded and not grace minded....but the old test was for our learning.
This topic can get very deep quickly....
"In The Dust of the Rabbi: Becoming a Disciple transports you to locations in Israel and Turkey to learn how the early church lived as disciples of Jesus. Come and follow teacher and historian Ray Vander Laan into the life of a talmid (disciple). Learn about how following a rabbi wasn't simply a hobby, it was a passion that was the driving force behind every action, every thought. And ask yourself, how passionate are you to follow Jesus?"
I ordered the video and cant wait to watch it I'll let you know soon!
| 2006/3/19 18:12||Profile|
Dear Brent, This is why I was so hesitant to answer right away.
I saw it in the message immediately, but have been around this block so many times before in the past with my fellow Messianics, and those were very heart breaking times for me.
Back many years ago, it was a really neat and wonderful celebration when one of our Jewish brothers would except Messiah, but as time has gone by, many have brought back those things that Paul had thrown out of his own education.
Paul is even scorned on some Messianic sites.
Brent I have Jewish blood, I am not anti-anything, but the Word tells me that the Gentile believer is as much a child of Abraham as those with Jewish or Israel blood.
Long and hard did I have to look into these things because of the schisms that came within our Messianic circles.
I've had to draw the line in the "Scriptural" sand and be heavily attacked by those I loved for that stand.
There are some very good Messianic sites out there, that more fully understand the New Covenant and proper Biblical Hermeneutics, but there are others that have brought back the Babylonian Talmud and it's methods of interpreting which I mentioned above.
These are the "mixed cloth" ministries, who have not done as Paul had to do when he considered his former education under Gamaliel as dung. Phil 3:2-8.
This is very painful. We are having to rip apart the peoples that God would join as to one olive tree. The wild with the natural branches, but that is what Paul's ministry was all about.
He was called as a Pharisee to preach the New Covenant to the Gentiles.
You would think that with his education he would have been called to the Jews, as Peter the fisherman was, but no, he was called to the Gentiles to Protect them from the Judaisers and the "concision", because he of all was most pulled out from it, having been taken alone for 14 years with just the Lord to re-educate him and he did not falter under the pressure of the Jews as Peter had in Galatians 2.
That is why he wrote half of our N.T. and suffered the most persecution and wrote books like Romans and Galatians and possibly Hebrews.
His ministry was unimaginable because of what he knew from being a zealous Pharisee (Acts 23), and that is why even now, his name is being maligned amongst those who are returning to the law and the 'methods' of the rabbis.
We now have the Holy Spirit as our Teacher.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
And Paul told Timothy to "study" to show himself approved.
Studying the Greek and Hebrew from Lexicons or dictionaries is one of the greatest things you can do, but to return to the education that Paul taught to turn from and to turn to, The Word and The Spirit of Truth, is how we are to operate now, In Spirit and In Truth and not in "methods" that actually did come out of the Babylonian captivity.
The rabbis were then called Rav. And they brought forth what they said the word said, just as Catholic Priests did for hundreds of years.
God ordained Priests in that time, not rabbis.
We have the Holy Spirit now and more Study reference books and on-line, for the languages now then ever before in history.
You could spend a day just exegeting one verse and still not get all of the truth out of it.
You risk much to place yourself under a rabbi ... and that is what this man has made himself, whether you realize that or not.
He may say that Yehoshua or the Ruach Kodesh - the Holy Spirit is "Rabbi", but he is a "teacher" and so he is the rabbi there, and that was seen in his articles.
I looked over the site well brent. I would never come back to hurt you. I think you saw my hesitancy on page one.
I trust you know that in Jesus, I would not try to rip myself or anyone else from the True Olive Tree.
His Love to you.
| 2006/3/19 23:27|
Brent, do you have the www.e-sword.net downloaded to your computer ?
If you look around the site, you will see books by Alfred Edersheim. One is called The Temple - Its Ministry and Service and the other Very good one is [u]The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah.[/u]
The second one will touch on many of the things we talked about in the first post up top.
There are other good ones there that you can download like, The Wars Of The Jews/The History Of The Destruction Of Jerusalem and also Antiquities Of The Jews By Flavius Josephus.
Lots of good books for free download. And pretty much all the dictionaries etc. that would keep anyone busy for a long time :)
| 2006/3/19 23:46|
Did you know that nobody is called a disciple after Acts? We are called, sanctified in Christ, Saints of God in Christ, The comforted,
1 Corinthians 1:2-3 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3-4 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
We are called brethren, we are called servants,
Galatians 1:6-10 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
We are adopted sons' of God with Christs' signature on the legal papers which stand before God written in The Blood of Christ. I would much rather be a birthed, in nature, by the Christ that is in us, son, than a disciple.
To answer Your Question, No I am not a disciple.
Most of all we are the faithful in Jesus Christ, We are the blessed in all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, we are called the holy and without blame before Him in Love, we are called adopted children by Jesus Christ to Himself by the good pleasure of His will. By His Grace we are called accepted in the Beloved.
1 Thessalonians 1:3-4 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
The Elect of God.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/3/20 0:05||Profile|
| Re: 3rd|
One last thing if I may.
The best teachers, teach you 'how to teach/study yourself' from the Word, with the best tools of Word Studies, proper hermeneutics, exegetical studies and expository skills, with John 16:13 before yours eyes always, and do not have you to sit at their feet.
They will be the salt that makes you thirsty or hungry for The Word and to desire nothing but.
When you are done with that method, you can defend what you believe with every Scripture ever written on any topic you are challenged on, and with the languages if they need them.
Knowledge puffeth up but .....
His Word is enough. Do not go beyond What is Written.
I think that is a warning to each and every one of us from His Word.
| 2006/3/20 0:11|
Quote: The bible says Jesus came also to fulfill... Im not saying or disagreeing with you but Jesus did have a MOM & DAD too?? Rabbi too??
His Dad was God the Father. His mom was Mary the maker of baby Jesus by the Seed of God the Father.
HE did nothing without the Father. Jesus needed no Rabbi and either do we. Jhn 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [He], and [that] I do nothing of Myself; but as my Father hath taught Me, I speak these things.
God taught Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit teaches us. John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My Name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/3/20 0:42||Profile|