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Discussion Forum : General Topics : John Wesley died poor coz he didn't read the bible.

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allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
So long as the translator is attempting to be faithful to his task, and faithfully translate what is in front of him, then the spirit of that translation will be faithful to conveying the same message.




The danger in this is that when a person translates the bible he puts what he thinks God is saying down rather than putting it down exactly as it is and allowing the reader to go to God for the understanding of the passage.

However, we are getting off the point about riches.

I find in situations like this it is often quite easy to show how others are not trusting in God enough, or relying too much on riches. We need to look at ourselves, do we really need that extra car, can we manage without a holiday this year, could we humble ourselves to buy second hand items rather that new.

If we follow the example of Wesley and others, we need to concider what we spend our money on and try to be more discerning.

Wesley said; "Earn all you can, Save all you can, and Give all you can."

The way I understand this is to say that we should work and not rely on charity of others or the state, not that we should work 12hrs for 7 days.
Saving doesn't mean stashing it in a bank or off shore investments but buying cheaper things when you can.
Give all you can, well can any of us say we give until it hurts?

Let's use the examples of others and all these scriptures written in the posts above and apply them to our own lives, rather than sitting smugly in our middle class houses and critisizing false preachers in their mansions ;-)


_________________
Ste

 2006/3/15 16:14Profile









 Re:

The real danger is which Greek is the translator translating? Alexandrian or Textus Receptus? If he is translating the Alexandrian then he will end up with something totally different than if he were translating the Textus Receptus. There in lies the real core difference between the Textus Receptus Bibles (KJV, Tyndale, Geneva, etc) and the modern versions (NIV, ESV, NASV etc).

Add in Dynamic Equivalency and Textural Criticism, and you end up with a mess... in my humble opinion.

Krispy

 2006/3/16 6:45
adonaisarmy
Member



Joined: 2004/5/13
Posts: 36


 Re: John Wesley died poor coz he didn't read the bible.

Hi my name is joshua, i also have been muched greived over this prosperity doctrine, in our day, which seems to have flowed out of the word of faith movement but has been around since the beginning in one form or another im sure. It seems in Paul's day there was a doctrine creeping into the church that exactly resembles the one of today. In the following verses i believe we see this.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

(what is the wholesome words of the Lord Jesus Christ? and the teaching that is according to Godliness? In context Paul is says that Godliness with contentment is great gain, NOT Godliness is a means of gain. ie being is a christian is an oppurtunity or means to be rich. Part of true godliness is true contentment. What are some of the wholesome words of the Lord, and his teaching on this.
Matthew 6:19-34" Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
31Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day [is] the evil thereof."

We all believers here have an explicit command by our Lord to not invest our finances on storing up things here on earth and an explicit command to store up them in heaven. This was not a option or a suggestion. What did moths primarily destroy in those days. Moths ate clothes, those more so that were not worn much hence "where moth destroy" because clothes being "stored up". Except we dont have that prb in the 20th century because of sinithetic clothing. Gold, silver, etc "were rust destroy" The principal is that everything is going to be destroyed, the things that are are going to fade away, we cannot take them with us. So the Lord is telling us not to store up material things firstly because of there incorruptibility. He commands us to invest our finances into His Kingdom not here on earth, to invest in heaven, not here and now to satisfy ourselves when they will only fade away. He illustrates this to His disciples for us in telling them to sell all they have.
Luk 12:33 "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
34For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Excuse" i have all these things but i dont love them, id sell them in a second if God told me to."

This is like the guy with porno prob saying with his walls covered magazines pilled everywhere" i dont really love these things id get rid of them if i had to im still pure inside"

You reveal were your heart is by were your treasure is. If you have it it show that is where your heart is at, otherwise you wouldnt have it if you didnt want it. IF YOU HAVE IT IT HAS YOU.

Then to te rich man he commands the same to be His disciple:
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

The demands of following Christ he said clearly were to forsake all, your life, all you have,take up your cross, and follow him, otherwise you could not be His disciple.(Mat 16:24,Mar 8:34,Mar 10:21,Luk 9:23)

Mar 8:35 "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."

These are i think among the many of the wholesome words of our Lord and the teaching according to Godliness; teaching godliness with contentment is great gain.

So we go back to verse 3, 1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

(if anyman teach different than what jesus taught, and not agree with his words)

1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

(Here we see that Paul is teaching true Christianity, and rebuke heresy that is taught much today especially in america, that gain is godliness, having much, storing up on earth, having riches, luxeries, outwardly, is Godliness. NO, godliness with contentment is great gain! From people that teach this get away from them!)

1Ti 6:6But godliness with contentment is great gain. (As Christ teaches, in the eternal investment, and ie. now learning obedience, by self denial)

1Ti 6:7For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out.

1Ti 6:8And having food and raiment let us be therewith content. ( Here it doesnt get any blunter and plainer, we are to be content with the basic needs, food, and clothing. that it. This is our standard agaisnt everything we do with our resources we need to ask ourselves is this a need or a want. Obviously, some people need a vehicle to get to work, but do you need a mercedes? no, with leather seats, no every extra luxuries package no. Thats what your flesh would want. Used or new affortable, best out of it for your money, ie toyota corolla. whatever your job may be that kind of vehicle you need, but the bare nessary the best for your money, most importantly always being led by the H.S with much prayer. We all should consider our jobs too, and if our work is were God wants us, and is it a glorifying to him profession? if not we should get out. Our lives are to be a living sacrifice. Not about us, our dreams, goals, education, future, wants, pleasures, hobbies, etc like the world tells us, but our lives are now all about our King, and putting Him first, and His kingdom first in advansing and furthering that in our lives, in every possible way we can, knowing He is coming soon, knowing that we are going to have to give an account, doing everything 4 the glory of God.

To further emphazize my points and some very good resources on this subjects that I highly reccomend is
1. David Kirkwood sermon love of money(a former pastor and graduate of Word Of Faith) listen at www.revivalschool.com under music and sermon downloads on the right column main page.
and David has a website too if your interesed. http://www.shepherdserve.org/

2. 2 books by K.P. Yohannan, president of Gospel For Asia first is called Revolution In World Missions(His testimony as a native missionary in India, now a servant to the body of Christ raising up, funding sending out native missionaries, and teaching the body of Christ esp. in the US of the great need of the 10/40 window 4 the gospel, and our responsibilities as Christian in this. And a wake up call to the Church to go back to NT Christianity, This book is much like reading the book of Acts, as far as testimonies are concearned), second The Road To Reality Like the first but focusses more on Coming home to jesus from the unreal world, the lies of the present day gospel, our culture and desception, and the call to be a real follower of Christ in these times. Both these books i deff recomend to any serious Christian.

Im grived, right now in my life, and Im truly seeking to live my life, for the King, and to follow Him, without any compramise, Im facing a very hard place right now in this area. Please pray for me. Im sharing these things out of love for my brothers here and care for you, this is my convictions, of what our Lord is calling me and all to and always has every believer. K.P. said the true test of our affections is not how much we give but how we live our lives. I do not want an inch of compramise in my life, even if it means losing mother father brother and sister for his sake. I pray that all you would see the truth and sell out for Christ, and be a living sacrifice; to further our Kings kingdom, and follow our Great Commision; to preach the goodnews, and make disciples. Always seeking His Glory, i love brothers and sisters in the Lord. I feel we must not forget to love those who have fallen, or are blind, in this area, we must pray for them, and speak to them, in love and humility. Knowing that no covetours or greedy person shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Here are some more scriptures on this subject. If anyone desires further communcation with me u can email me at adonaisarmy@netscape.net

love in Messiah Yeshua Jesus Christ our Lord, joshua

Job 31:24 If I have made gold my hope, or have said to the fine gold, [Thou art] my confidence;

Psa 39:6 Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up [riches], and knoweth not who shall gather them.

Psa 62:10 Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart [upon them].

Pro 11:4 Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.

Pro 16:16 How much better [is it] to get wisdom than gold! and to get understanding rather to be chosen than silver!

Pro 23:5 Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for [riches] certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

Ecc 2:26 For [God] giveth to a man that [is] good in his sight wisdom, and knowledge, and joy: but to the sinner he giveth travail, to gather and to heap up, that he may give to [him that is] good before God. This also [is] vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecc 5:10 He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this [is] also vanity.

Ecc 5:11 When goods increase, they are increased that eat them: and what good [is there] to the owners thereof, saving the beholding [of them] with their eyes?

Ecc 5:12 The sleep of a labouring man [is] sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep.

Ecc 5:13 There is a sore evil [which] I have seen under the sun, [namely], riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt.

Ecc 5:14 But those riches perish by evil travail: and he begetteth a son, and [there is] nothing in his hand.

Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Luk 12:21 So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.

1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and [into] many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

1Ti 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Jam 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you].

Jam 5:2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.

Jam 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 2006/3/16 14:56Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

The real danger is which Greek is the translator translating? Alexandrian or Textus Receptus? If he is translating the Alexandrian then he will end up with something totally different than if he were translating the Textus Receptus. There in lies the real core difference between the Textus Receptus Bibles (KJV, Tyndale, Geneva, etc) and the modern versions (NIV, ESV, NASV etc).



Most of the time, it doesn't really matter, as most the greek manuscripts across all the text families agree with eachother by and large. It's not so simple as "Alexandrian vs Byzantine" texts types.

Quote:

Add in Dynamic Equivalency and Textural Criticism, and you end up with a mess... in my humble opinion.



Dynamic Equivalency and "smoothing over" rough translations are actually needed. Otherwise the most literal/verbatim translation of a verse can be entirely unintelligible.

And as far as textual criticism, the TR is the product of textual criticism.

Krispy, I think it would really benefit you if you actually learned some greek and actually took a look at a critical textual aparatus which will tell you where all the manuscripts differ.

The aparatus will allow you to decide for yourself if the various committee's were right/wrong with the textual critical issues they made. Thus, you don't have to worry about if so-and-so editor was a member of a satanic cult, homosexual, or had some other agenda. Instead, you can decide for yourself if they were right or wrong in their choices, and have all the exact same evidence at hand that everybody else does.

Until then, your humble opinion is simply an ignorant one.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/3/16 15:14Profile









 Re:

While I am not a student of the Greek language, I have been studying the issue of the differing schools of manuscripts, their origins, their histories, etc. I can say with confidence that I understand the issue at hand quite well.

While I have a laymans grasp of Textual Criticism and Dynamic Equivalency, I do know that it is much more involved than just "smoothing over" a literal translation of the Greek.

I've been studying this issue of the differing texts for 3 or 4 years now... I'm really not bragging when I say I am not a novice at this. I do know what I'm talking about, just not always able to convey it as well as I know it.

Krispy

 2006/3/16 15:29
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

While I am not a student of the Greek language, I have been studying the issue of the differing schools of manuscripts, their origins, their histories, etc. I can say with confidence that I understand the issue at hand quite well.



There is more to textual criticism than simply external issues. You don't just say, "well, this text appears to be part of a certain family of manuscripts dating from such and such year." Nor do you just say, "well, we have a lot more versions of this type of manuscript than the other."

You must also examine the contents of the manuscripts at hand, and attempt to explain why different manuscripts have differences in them. Simply shouting "it's a conspiracy!" will not do. Such involves asking if an omission/addition of a word or phrase is an accident e.g. looking at the wrong line of a text while copying. Or, perhaps the scribe in copying was attempting to "fix" his copy of a text to make things match closer. e.g. NT quotations of the OT. Or perhaps a scribe was attempting to "update" the quality of grammar used , or even give a slight dynamic equivalent of his own. Granted, such usually involves simply a word or two being modified. But then there is the issue of things like the various endings of Mark 16. How can we explain why Mark has several different endings?

Quote:

I'm really not bragging when I say I am not a novice at this.



Until you can actually examine the differing greek manuscripts, you will always be a novice.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/3/16 16:02Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

If you would really like to go deeper, you can go ahead and teach yourself greek at home. Check out [url=www.teknia.com]www.teknia.com[/url] which contains many valuable greek resources, including the brilliant "Basics of Biblical Greek." With the Basics of Biblical Greek text/workbook, and the Mounce Lecture CD, you'll have enough knowledge of greek to seriously examine the differing manuscripts, and understand issues of translation.

This is perhaps the best Greek textbook out there today, used in most seminaries today. The lecture CD is actual lectures Mounce delievered at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, where I go to school. With a little hard work, you can have this stuff down in about 6 months-1 year, and you'll no longer have to simply take some commentators word on what the greek "really says."


_________________
Jimmy H

 2006/3/16 16:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Until you can actually examine the differing greek manuscripts, you will always be a novice.



I was referring to the written history of the differing texts... not my knowledge or Greek.

Krispy

 2006/3/16 16:15





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