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Discussion Forum : General Topics : John Wesley died poor coz he didn't read the bible.

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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: John Wesley died poor coz he didn't read the bible.

John Wesley died "poor" because everytime he got money, he was giving it away. He made millions in his lifetime. He took the parable of the man who was getting rich and storing it in a bigger barn quite literally.

One is a fool to think they are rich simply because they've stuffed as much money as they can under their mattress.

My pastor pointed this out once, and I've never forgotten it. Where the prosperity preachers miss it is from a Biblical point of view you are prosperous simply if you have all your needs met. My pastor, who doesn't make but $35 grand a year or so, considers himself rich. He says anytime he needs anything, God has supplied his need. You are well off financially if you have everything you need.


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Jimmy H

 2006/3/12 13:45Profile
GaryE
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Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:



Pro 13:7 There is that maketh himself rich, yet hath nothing: there is that maketh himself poor, yet hath great riches.


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Gary Eckenroth

 2006/3/12 15:17Profile









 Re:

Back when we were involved in WOF and Charismania we actually heard a "preacher" once claim that Jesus DID actually have wealth and material posessions. Where did it come from? Well, according to this guy it came from when He was born... you know, the three wise men. They brought gold, frankensence and myrrh and Joseph and Mary invested wisely and those treasures helped to fund Jesus' ministry. He "reasoned" that Jesus probably had the nicest house in all of Galilee... he had funds, and he was a carpenter after all.

Man, I heard some crazy stuff back when we were involved in that junk... but that had to have been in the top 5. That so-called "preacher" is probably right now standing on his roof with a tin-foil hat on his head waiting for the mother ship.

Krispy

 2006/3/15 9:09
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Good words brother Gary.

2 Cor 9:10-11
10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. NIV


We so often consider riches based on what we posess or can hold in our hands. God does want to make us rich and in every way not to hold on to it but to be generous, to give it away for His glory. What the early church understood is that being rich is having more than you need so you can share.

Jeff


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Jeff Smith

 2006/3/15 9:44Profile









 Re:

Thats one of the occasions when the NIV adds to scripture instead of subtracting from it. Still a sin either way.

This is what the KJV, Tyndale and the Textus Receptus says:

2Co 9:11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.

It's a good principle to be generous on every occasion, and Paul spoke to that in other passages, however you cant build an argument on verse 11 because it simply is not part of scripture. It's added in by those "faithful" translators of the NIV.

Krispy

 2006/3/15 13:11
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:



Hello Jeff,

Wesley notes for those two verses you quoted read:

2Co 9:9 - He hath scattered abroad - (A generous word.) With a full hand, without any anxious thought which way each grain falls. His righteousness - His beneficence, with the blessed effects of it. Remaineth for ever - Unexhausted, God still renewing his store. Psa_112:9

2Co 9:10 - And he who supplieth seed - Opportunity and ability to help others. And bread - All things needful for your own souls and bodies. Will continually supply you with that seed, yea, multiply it to you more and more. And increase the fruits of your righteousness - The happy effects of your love to God and man. Isa_55:10


In 2 Corinthians, Wesley quoted a verse that Paul quotes from Psalms 112:9 that says:

Psalm 112:9 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth forever; his horn shall be exalted with honor.
.................................................

Wesley then quotes with 2 Corinthians 9:10 a verse from Isaiah 55:10 which says:

Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

Then Isaiah 55:11 which John didn't quote reads:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
.................................................

Notice in his notes for 2 Corintians 9:9 that John has in parenthesis the words {a generous word}. This man Wesley, who seemed to give away the wealth that came into his hands, teaches of the seed of the word in his notes instead of going into the literal seed of their gift. Wesley prefers tho think of the {and increase the fruits of your righteousness} from the verse 2 Corintians 9:10 as the return from planting the seed of the word. It seems to me that Wesley stayed focused on the word instead of being caught up in finances.






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Gary Eckenroth

 2006/3/15 13:16Profile









 Re:

I wanna point out that I'm not arguing the point that we should be generous with what God blesses us with... just hi-liting the lose handling of scripture found in the NIV.

Krispy

 2006/3/15 13:43
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Thats one of the occasions when the NIV adds to scripture instead of subtracting from it...



I'm sorry, but I'm not so sure I see the difference in what either verse is saying in the two given translations? In this instance, both are utilizing the exact same greek, and the issue is simply one of which is the better translation of the same greek text in this verse.

Perhaps the issue you are debating is "being enriched" (KJV) vs "you will be made rich." (NIV/NASB) This phrase is being translated from a word that is a present middle/passive adverbial participle. It is a word that is continuous in action occuring in present time.

The most literal translation of this word would be "while being made rich..." The NIV/KJV translations imo, are equally valid. In part, I like the KJV reading a little better, because in general you translate participles with an "-ing" suffix. At the same time though, especially with words that are middle/passive (as in this case) you need to often use the word "being" in translation, of which the KJV does nicely.

However, the KJV also makes it sound this is some simple past happening by putting an "-ed" on the end of enrich. This is not some simple past tense happening, it is something that is occuring right now, continuously, over and over again. Thus, the NIV/NASB take a sort of future tense translation, so that one is not confused about it simply being a past event. However, if one is not careful one might read that they are not presently enriched.

In my opinion, the KJV/NIV/NASB both make good translations out of this participle, all equally valid, each with it's strengths and weaknesses. I think I might bring this verse to my Greek teacher's attention next week... especially since we are currently working on understanding/translating participles.


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Jimmy H

 2006/3/15 14:04Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Thank you all for the Greek lesson. I have a great desire for linguistics because I understand that communication is based on a common definition of terms used in order to convey a concept. My question would be does the spirit of the concept change with the linguistics? Is not Paul intimating the same concept as Jesus, "And when Jesus heard it, he said unto him, One thing thou lackest yet: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me." ASV

Is not the principle that, there is no room in the heart of man to have two masters, God and money?

Does not James say that the problem with our 'asking' is that we are motivated incorrectly, that we may gratify fleshly desires and not act as children of the Father who gives liberally?

It is not the riches that are evil but our passionate pursuit of them for self. Like Wesley I have a passion for the Father and the Son, but if He will allow me to distribute riches that men will repent at the goodness of God, then with this I will also be grateful.

Thanks again,
Jeff


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Jeff Smith

 2006/3/15 14:35Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

So long as the translator is attempting to be faithful to his task, and faithfully translate what is in front of him, then the spirit of that translation will be faithful to conveying the same message.

Slight nuances might be lost in translation, but so far as I have studied in Greek so far, sometimes to render a word/phrase most literally to encapsulate the entire range of that word's meaning in Greek would make it impossible to understand in english. So, a smoothing out of things is in order. Obviously if you cannot understand a phrase translated most literally, then you will obviously fail in conveying the spirit of that message.


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Jimmy H

 2006/3/15 14:45Profile





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