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 Re:

Not trying to play head games here ... but just to define one of the six words for "strive" and how it is used in context of both quotes I stuck in my post ....

2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do engender strifes {machē}.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive {machomai - Ha, is this where we got machoman ? }; but be gentle unto all men,[u] apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/u]


Sort of answered all of my points or questions or whatever on earth I posted to y'all.

;-)

 2006/3/13 0:49
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:



Dear Annie,

I hope you are feeling better and will pray.

Yes, I spoke in generalities and it is on purpose. I try not to accuse others by name. Hopefully, those who the shoe fits will wear it.

{quote again}

Here is a literal translation of verse Gal. 5:20

|1495| idol-service,
|5331| sorcery,
|2189| hostilities,
|2054| fightings,
|2205| jealousies,
|2372| angers,
|2052| rivalries,
|1370| divisions,
|0139| heresies

or maybe a shoe would fit here:

2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:


{Quote} Gills comentary from this verse

2Co 12:20 - For I fear lest when I come,.... This fear arose from his fatherly affection for them, and care of them:

I shall not find you such as I would; truly penitent for former sins, thoroughly reformed in life and manners, zealous for God, Christ, and the Gospel, and hearty lovers of one another:

and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not; sharp in his reproofs and admonitions, severe in his corrections and censures, and lawfully using the authority he had from Christ, to punish incorrigible offenders:

lest there be debates; or "strifes", or contentions among them, about words to no profit, or about their ministers, as before; one being for Paul, and another for Apollos, and another for Cephas:

envyings: at each other's gifts, or "jealousies" of one another, and evil surmisings:

wraths; breaking out into words and actions, which discover hatred of mind, a malignant spirit, quite contrary to that of the Gospel:

strifes: law suits before heathen magistrates; contentions in the church who shall be greatest; or about lesser matters of religion, or things indifferent, vain, and trifling, and kept up merely for the sake of victory:

backbitings; speaking evil of one another, detracting from, hurting, or taking away each other's character and good name:

whisperings; secretly sowing discords among friends, and privately suggesting evil things of each other:

swellings; with pride and conceit of themselves, because of their riches, learning, and eloquence, and looking with disdain upon others:

tumults; at church meetings, interrupting one another, going into parties, and making rents and schisms.


{Quote} Annie

You used the word "often" more than once, and have judged by using that word "fleshly", which means that You are Not fleshly and that is the only way you could discern "fleshly" in others. Right ?
..............................................

Wrong! The sins of my life that the Lord has exposed to me aren't any less a sin than when some organization does the same sins and takes on the name Discernment Ministry. During my life I am guilty of naming people and accusing them because of a different opinion. I have backbitten, dissembled with the lips, whispered, been involved with strife etc. and I call those sins flesh when in me and I call it flesh when in others.

Annie, yesterday when you and Diane posted on the tread that went into remarriage, I could hear the opposite of what discernment ministries represent to me. Diane especially was able to say things that I couldn't put into words. There were words that actually ministerd instead of accusations.

My thought is that discernment ministries tear down instead of building up. I realize that you and Diane have both identified yourself with discernment ministries in this thread. Please do not think that I am trying to attack either of you by writing what I have written, because that is not my intent. Even though you identify with discernment ministries does not mean that I am directing my speech towards you.

peace, mercy, and grace

GaryE










_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2006/3/13 0:52Profile
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Dear Annie,

If I were to judge the rightness or wrongness of the missionaries or any other servant of God concerning their apologetics then I would be in error. The issue that I thought that I communicated concerning debate was motive. Since I cannot discern the thoughts and intents of another man's heart I cannot judge his motives.

The motive of love, valuing an individual and seeking his good or benefit, is what is needed in declaring the truth. I commend any one who is motivated by compassion to share the truth with another human being that they may become a 'learner' or student of Jesus Christ.

We are to judge the accuracy and veracity of what people say. The question is how do we approach that person when he is in error and what is the motive of our heart in confronting him.

There is another important factor in revealing a false belief in another person's doctrine. We are to be led of the Spirit. The understanding that we presently have did not come in a lump sum. We received revelation of truth line upon line, precept upon precept. Many spiritual truths may not be perceived until other spiritual truths and principles are grasped. It is expedient that we obey the voice of the Holy Spirit when shining a light into the darkness of another person so that we do not create confusion by expounding insights for which they do not have the foundation.

I appreciate the zeal and passion that you have for the truth, Annie. I pray that you may serve it with tenderness and compassion where it is needed.


_________________
Jeff Smith

 2006/3/13 1:15Profile









 Re:

Thank you both brothers. I was using all of our posts as a spring board to address this issue with fairness only.

Gary, have you not 'ever' found an Apologetic/Discernment type website that was helpful ? Just very curious on that, because it sounds in both posts that you haven't.

And our new friend that bingo-ed on the Zac Poonen thread. I loved that message by Zac and your response as I said.

Yes, Diane and Dorcas have a gift of expression.
Just 2 weeks ago I was tongue tied and said, something to the affect that, they should answer FOR me, as my words don't flow as well as theirs do. Amen.

I thank you for your prayers for the ant bites. I am [b]distracting[/b] myself from them, by hanging out here tonite.
I can't think of a better place to "distract" myself than with the Saints. Amen to that too.

I wanted to add to that verse above, a lovely commentary on one of the verses, to show that y'all are right about "our spirit in correcting".

This is from Barnes Notes, but I'd love to continue on with posting lots more about the four verses I placed above from many other great Classic teachers/Authors, because I think brent has brought up a wonderful question with this thread and it could set the tone for this entire Forum and keep it where God had intended it to go.... "according to His Word".

Here is the one commentary:

[b]2Ti 2:25 -
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves - That is, those who embrace error, and array themselves against the truth. We are not to become angry with such persons, and denounce them at once as heretics. We are not to hold them up to public reproach and scorn; but we are to set about the business of patiently “instructing them.” Their grand difficulty, it is supposed in this direction, is, that they are ignorant of the truth. Our business with them is, “calmly to show them what the truth is.” If they are angry, we are not to be. If they oppose the truth, we are still calmly to state it to them. If they are slow to see it, we are not to become weary or impatient. Nor, if they do not embrace it at all, are we to become angry with them, and denounce them. We may pity them, but we need not use hard words. This is the apostolic precept about the way of treating those who are in error; and can any one fail to see its beauty and propriety? Let it be remembered, also, that this is not only beautiful and proper in itself; it is the wiseST course, if we would bring others over to our opinions. You are not likely to convince a man that you are right, and that he is wrong, if you first make him angry; nor are you very likely to do it, if you enter into harsh contention. You then put him on his guard; you make him a party, and, from self-respect, or pride, or anger, he will endeavor to defend his own opinions, and will not yield to yours. “Meekness” and “gentleness” are the very best things, if you wish to convince another that he is wrong. With his heart first, and then modestly and kindly show him “what the truth is,” in as few words, and with as unassuming a spirit, as possible, “and you have him.”
If God peradventure will give them repentance, ... - Give them such a view of the error which they have embraced, and such regret for having embraced it, that they shall be willing to admit the truth. After all our care in teaching others the truth, our only dependence is on God for its success. We cannot be absolutely certain that they will see their error; we cannot rely certainly on any power which argument will have; we can only hope that God may show them their error, and enable them to see and embrace the truth; compare Act_11:18. The word rendered “peradventure,” here - μήποτε mēpote - means, usually, “not even, never;” and then, “that never, lest ever” - the same as “lest perhaps.” It is translated “lest at any time,” Mat_4:6; Mat_5:25; Mat_13:15; Mar_4:12; Luk_21:34; “lest,” Matt, Luk_7:6; Luk_13:29; Luk_15:32; “et al.: lest haply,” Luk_14:12; Act_5:39. It does not imply that there was any Chance about what is said, but rather that there was uncertainty in the mind of the speaker, and that there was need of caution Lest something should occur; or, that anything was done, or should be done, to prevent something from happening.
It is not used elsewhere in the New Testament in the sense which our translators, and all the critics, so far as I have examined, give to it here - as implying a hope that God would give them repentance, etc. But I may be permitted to suggest another interpretation, which will accord with the uniform meaning of the word in the New Testament, and which will refer the matter to those who had embraced the error, and not to God. It is this: “In meekness instructing ‘those that oppose themselves’ (ἀντιδιατιθεμένους antidiatithemenous) ‘lest’ - μήποτε mēpote - God should give them repentance, and they should recover themselves out of the snare of the devil,” etc. That is, they put themselves in this posture of opposition so that they shall not be brought to repentance, and recover themselves. They do it with a precautionary view that they may not be thus brought to repentance, and be recovered to God. They take this position of opposition to the truth, intending not to be converted; and this is the reason why they are not converted.[/b]

 2006/3/13 1:51
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: be on both sides of the "baton"

Quote:
Please do not think that I am trying to attack either of you by writing what I have written, because that is not my intent. Even though you identify with discernment ministries does not mean that I am directing my speech towards you.


Gary, not for a minute, and even if you were being somewhat harsh, I still would not put that outside of God’s permission. As iron sharpens iron. Some sharpeners can be quite abrasive.

I would not wish to identify myself as discernment “ministry”, but one who is working on growing in discernment. I have read a variety of discernment ministries on the web, and looked at Walter Martin’s book “The Kingdom of the Cults” (ed. Hanegraaff) and have seen some risks of this self-designated “authority”. In the midst of truth can be error, or lack of consideration of what God can do in spite of man.

I have come to see that when we start thinking that we ARE a discernment ministry, or a special prophet, rather than merely a follower of Christ, we are vulnerable to really mess up. If we proclaim truth outside of God’s divine timing and leading, we can damage not only ourselves, but many others.

Right now, the church where I serve as Minister of Music has Freemasons in the eldership. Yet, God has NOT called me to direct that issue. Instead, he has merely called me to model a Christ-follower, one who just lives as Christ would. And there is power in becoming less, because it allows for the Spirit to do the work. There are lesser issues which I am called to address at this time.

As is clearly said, arguing and pushing our beliefs, demanding that others see our “light”, and pointing fingers is deadly, deadly, deadly. It produces sides – one against the other, and invites defensive, even hostile reaction.

The challenge is to know if hostile reaction towards us is a response to our lack of grace, or to our God-given role (persecution as Christ prophesied).

Whatever calling we believe we have, I believe that we all have BLIND SPOTS, and God permits that in order for us all to RECEIVE ministry and correction from the Body. It keeps us humble. A renown choral director said once: "You must always be on both sides of the baton at once." So also pastors must be on both sides of the pulpit at once, and discerners and discernment ministries need to be on both sides of the "microphone".

This is one reason I am here on SI – there are plenty here to keep me in line when I am tempted to run off with too much “I know better than you do”

Thank ye’all.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/13 8:28Profile









 Re:

Diane, how do 'you' determine that someone else is saying "I know better than you do" ?

I am getting out of your post above that you do not agree with having Apologetic/Discernment Ministries. Most especially in this quote:
""As is clearly said, arguing and pushing our beliefs, demanding that others see our “light”, and pointing fingers is deadly, deadly, deadly. It produces sides – one against the other, and invites defensive, even hostile reaction.""

So how is it that you are being accused of being 'for' them ?


And what think ALL of the Scriptures given above and the bold print commentary by Barnes ?

Thanks.

 2006/3/13 18:25
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: to MeAgain

Annie, I may not be answering your questions, as I’m not sure I understand them. It is very possible that I have some residual cognitive impairment from ME - you know, like Jacob's hip. So I will stumble with whatever thoughts float across my mind.

I fully endorse these words from Barnes regarding deceived people, but notice at the end – it is really a HEART issue, not an intellectual issue. In other words it is a spiritual battle between light and darkness:

Quote:
Our business with them is, “calmly to show them what the truth is.”

You are not likely to convince a man that you are right, and that he is wrong, if you first make him angry; nor are you very likely to do it, if you enter into harsh contention. You then put him on his guard; you make him a party, and, from self-respect, or pride, or anger, he will endeavor to defend his own opinions, and will not yield to yours.

They take this position of opposition to the truth, intending not to be converted; and this is the reason why they are not converted.


Quote:
I am getting out of your post above that you do not agree with having Apologetic/Discernment Ministries.



I did not say that, just expressed my concern that once someone calls themselves a discernment ministry, there is a certain risk. They may feel more equipped to discern than they really are, or they may not believe they have blind spots. It would be like me saying I was a doctor or mechanic, or whatever, and then assume that I should know everything in that field.

There are no exams for discerners, no screening process (which would be like discerners discerning the discerners). But, I don’t discredit them all, neither all what they may say. And even if some have an inflated sense of talent, they may still have the truth embodied in their message – truth that I can and need to heed.

How do I tell what's right - well, I can only say 'amen' to what is supported by my understanding of scripture. Although, more and more, I try to consider what is NOT being said - that may be the biggest clue. People don't tend to address their blind spots.

Am I saying anything that addresses any of your questions??? I do love you a lot, and find you a refreshing challenge to my ranting. Don’t steer away. You have some of the missing links – the ones I don’t have.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/13 19:06Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi GaryE and h2oboy. I was really refreshed by what both of you shared. Thank you both, really.


Dear Annie, my prayers are with you for your health problem, in Jesus name may you be healed sister.

Peace and grace to you all in Jesus.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/3/13 19:08Profile
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re:

This might be off subject,it reminds me of a verse that Jesus in the book of (Mark 9:38 thur 40)is this what we are doing like the disciples,who is not agaist us is for Us.

 2006/3/13 19:25Profile









 Re:

Thank you for your prayers brother Chris. I'm playing Russian Roulette and not going to the ER, after I had time to talk to my husband, we both have a peace, that I wait till morning and see my Dr. who will give me more knowledgeable care ... just gotta make it through tonite.

Diane, you continue to bless me.
Your radar amazed me just now. How did you know I was fixin' to bail ? :-? Wow, I'm impressed.

There is so much I would like to say on this topic and I love that you are willing to come share on this also.

I was laying down just now thinking of "absolutes" and that it's "absolutes" that makes Jesus say He IS the Truth.

We were taught and I've seen it work out, in all the years since ... that with error, it's like two lines that "should" be parallel, but one is off by a fraction of an inch, not barely noticeable to the eye ... but if these two supposed parallel lines continue on, the space between them increases, and because of that tiny off-ness, that in the end they can be miles apart.

They say and even as Zac put it in his Holy Spirit's Voice message from yesterday ... that the Holy Spirit is constantly witnessing to Truth ... so if we don't hear Him, we get a tiny callous on our receptor, so to speak, and each time we do not hear true truth from Him, the callous enlarges.

Anyhow ... God's Word is such a safeguard, where nothing else can be.

I thank you for your reply.
I pray to be more clearer as this allergy thing clears up. Posting now is like swimming up stream against the current. Ha.

Love you sis.
Annie

 2006/3/13 20:49





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