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brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Annie,
Vance Havner said: 'we send new converts into the biggest refrigerators in the world...the ones with steeples on them' ;-)


_________________
Brent

 2006/3/11 22:25Profile
CyberCarbon
Member



Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 122


 Re: Keep reading Ravenhill, my favorite is Meat for Men.

People in this country (USofA) want everything easy fast and without pain or sacrifice. Satan loves it Television preaches it. The liberal church confirms it, the public schools teach it, most people live it.


_________________
David Michael Paul

 2006/3/12 3:23Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: silenced, but still speaking out

Quote:
I am here to stick up for those Christian brothers and sisters God has placed in your church to help the church stay on track with the Word, and keep the heretical riff raff away from your church pulpits,



Annie, thanks sooooooooooooo much for this article you posted. It validates the role of discreners in the Body.

However, the resistance is phenominal. Churches adhere carefully to their heirarchy and prescribed positions of authority. When one of the "lesser" uneducated members speaks out, he/she is silenced, and viewed as one lacking authority or understanding to do so.

You are branded as a '"trouble maker', or even just a little "off". So forever after that the "knob" is turned off. No one listens to anything you have to say. You are discounted forever after that. You are silenced.

Then you have to develop a new strategy: Speak directly to the underlings, those in the church who are also concerned and willing to hear.

In this day of modern communication, you can also email articles, pass out CD's, books, articles, and speak to ANY people in ANY church who are concerned, and are willing to listen to someone other than the preacher or their denomination.

Of course it works both ways: Heresies spread fast that way too. But regardless, God is zealous for his Church and will indeed find an open door for his messengers.


re debating: I have come to believe that it is fruitless to debate with one who is rigid in his view, and is threatend by one who may challenge it. In their mind debate is not an invitation to think deeply but a DANGER to the "stability".

There are many who don't want the boat to rock because some people might fall out. They'd prefer that it sinks slowly and everybody drown.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/12 8:29Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: works of the flesh and the 'party' spirit

Hi Meagain, how are you? I wanted to make a few comments about your post and I hope they will be helpfull to our understanding.

Quote:
It's because of this "let's not disagree" attitude that we are being taken in by the heretics that are scattering the flock and causing this "falling away".



I'm not sure it is that simple. What about the influence of the uncoverted being brought into the churches? Is it possible that these are the ones contending for their own self-willed interpretations of scripture and causing divisions?. And could this be why so many of these are evident:

Quote:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like



Here is a literal translation of verse 20

|1495| idol-service,
|5331| sorcery,
|2189| hostilities,
|2054| fightings,
|2205| jealousies,
|2372| angers,
|2052| rivalries,
|1370| divisions,
|0139| heresies

I can't speak for anyone else but these are what was on my mind perosonally in this thread. I think what greives me when I see this more than anything is the disregard displayed towards the spirit life of other believers for the sake of prevailing upon one another to advance a particular doctrine or percieved truth.

I was reminded of this

Quote:
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.



I think if we look at the entire context in which this warning appears, it can be applied to how we treat the other vessels in God's house, for before this he warns

Quote:
But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.



The way I understood this was, imagine a hired servant going around a magnificent house breaking all the precious vessels becuase he was careless in the discharging of his duties? Imagine how the owner of that house would deal with him?

And so I think all of this should be considered in the way we treat each other, including how we handle God's truth with each other. I like this probing question from the scripture

Quote:
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?



And yet is there not a tendency for us to handle the truths of scripture as though we owned them, and were not only stewards entrusted with them? Certainly it is our duty to carefully guard these truths from corruption, but God forbid it would be done outside of the yoke of God's control.

The definition that I have stuck with so far for meekness is this

Quote:
power under control



And when it comes to weilding the powerfull Sword of the Spirit, the question is, not only whether we are correct in what we are saying, but is saying it in this way, and at this time, appropriate.

Quote:
There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.



and..

Quote:
In the mouth of the foolish is a rod of pride: but the lips of the wise shall preserve them.



for also it says

Quote:
A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.



Is it possible, that many sincere people, with the motive of defending truth, are actually participating with a 'party' or 'factious' spirit(see list above)? I think this is a place for discernment also, don't you? And I thought this was the issue that was being discussed here, I could be wrong.

Anyway, I think we are really discussing two seperate ideas here, and I wanted to make my own thoughts clear. At least this is what I thought brent was addressing at first but again, I could be wrong.

As a sort of aside, one of my very brief experiences of open-air preaching involved confronting this heretical group here in Philadelphia called the 'Isrealites.' It didn't go to well(as I saw it) and some of them(I think they were with them) treated me very shamefully. Someone even threw what looked like a bottle of lotion? at me! It just barely missed.

Just thought I'd add this in here to let you all know I'm not just a 'paper tiger'. Hehe :-P

May God watch over all of you and protect you in Jesus name.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2006/3/12 10:50Profile









 Re:

I'll be back to tend to your post later Chris.

Right now, I'm really tired, yet want to be here with friends.

I see where I will want to handle yours with the same type I posted at the end of this last page, because it was my answer to your first post on that first page also.

Haven't got it at present to contend with your words.

TTYL
Love
Annie

 2006/3/12 14:36
GaryE
Member



Joined: 2005/4/26
Posts: 376
Mifflinburg, Pennsylvania

 Re:



Chris, I like your post. It isn't that I always disagree with what discernment ministries are saying, most of the time they are on a subject I agree with, but it is the fruit of what I see coming from them. They talk of fruit in others yet they don't see their own fruit.

Often people say that something is what the bible says when instead it is only there opinion of what the bible says. People sometimes accuse others of heresy when it is them who are in a misunderstanding of scripture. They then carry this into a fleshly debate that is nothing but strife and contention. Even if a person is right in there opinion, a fleshly debate of strife and contention isn't of God. When this is done it divides the brethren.
.................................................

The literal translation of the words you listed are very interesting because these things are what is often seen coming from the discernment ministries.

{Quote}

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.


Here is a literal translation of verse 20

|1495| idol-service,
|5331| sorcery,
|2189| hostilities,
|2054| fightings,
|2205| jealousies,
|2372| angers,
|2052| rivalries,
|1370| divisions,
|0139| heresies
...............................................

Yes, we are to contend for the faith but often what ends up happening is that we end up contending for our opinions instead; Our own interpretations of scriptures or the teachings that come from our particular denomination or church. When we do this, we end up getting carried into these sins listed in Galations 5:20. This seems to happen when we go from discussion into debate. If we are not careful, we end up in the above sins and are in sin just as those we might be trying to correct.

It seems that it is so easy to forget that our enemy is not people.


_________________
Gary Eckenroth

 2006/3/12 21:35Profile









 Re:

Gary, I've had some health issues endanger my well-being today ... so I can't answer as well as I'd prefer to and I can't answer Chris' yet ... but I ask you as a sister in Christ, who has grown to love and respect you, to re-read your post and see if you are not "judging" others by the same measure you say that they are judging. Mostly in the first two paragraphs.

I hope first that you understand that I mean no harm to you, but you've painted with a broad brush here and HOW can you say that their doctrines are wrong, unless you yourself feel yours are right, so much so, that you can judge theirs.

This "discernment" stuff is tricky business ... and when we start out to "discern the discernment ministries" we [u]have[/u] to have our doctrine provable, Apologetically, in order to properly discern the doctrine of another.

You spoke in Generalities .... please read your Own words carefully and see that you are doing the very thing that you are saying that "these" (who?) Discernment people (or posters) are doing.

If you know of a Ministry or poster that is actually doing all of these things, then name them and tell us where they are off or which doctrines they are messed up on.

A poster may not know that they are off doctrinally or in spirit and if we love them, and feel we have sufficient evidence to the contrary of what or how they've posted, our love for them would compel us to help them ... but speaking here in generalities doesn't help a soul. How is the erroneous poster to know that you "mean them" by posting in this fashion as you have. Don't just point fingers into the air, but help any of us to see "the truth", as you believe you see it or the "error", as you have just claimed you see in people "often".

When a sentence begins with "Often people", or "They", I get a little bit worried, because we are setting ourselves up as the judge of those we call "judgers" and the word "often" in the same line as "people" definitely is a wide brush judgment.

Better to be specific with 'what' Doctrines do you mean and which Ministries or "people" are you pointing at.

You used the word "often" more than once, and have judged by using that word "fleshly", which means that You are Not fleshly and that is the only way you could discern "fleshly" in others. Right ?

Other than that, I think we should all, everyone of us, watch the ministry of Paul, because he was definitely one of the very first "Discernment Ministers" and wrote half of our N.T. ..... so in my Book, I'd say he is the only one to judge others by. That's why God had Paul write half of THE WORD and how we should judge the other people, who you are referring to and the rest.


Love you and God Bless you brother.
In Peace.

Annie

 2006/3/12 22:18
h2oboy
Member



Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Thanks Chris! I appreciate your attitude. In forty five years of listening to "defense of the truth" I have discerned more of a spirit of 'eris'(2054) than a spirit of love. Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 13 that any ministry or service for the Lord that is not done in love is of NO value.

It seems that most Bible scholars have a gap in thier Bibles. I see very few who understand and practice 2 Tim 2:24-26

24 "And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,

25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,

26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will." ASV

In all these years of "hot debate" over doctrine I have never seen anyone won over or converted to the "correct" way of thinking. I have however seen many repent of erroneous beliefs when approached gently, humbly, and in love.

May I suggest that the real problem of sin in the Church is not so much the compromise of the message from the pulpit, but that the 'sheep' are being eaten by wolves because there are not enough true shepherds. There was another posting that indicated in the USA we have 1 full-time person in ministry for every 182 people in the churches. I would like to meet the shepherd that can adequately care for 182 people and none be lost.

I remember reading another posting that some churches are dropping their missions support due to the pressures of building programs etc. I was wondering which Biblical passage that these churches use to justify using the 'tithe' for buildings rather than for 'food' for the servants of God, who have been sanctified for the service of the 'House of God.'

Just maybe if we would use God's 'holy' tithe for the support of His 'holy' ministers, the sheep of God would be protected from wandering from the truth, eating contaminated food, and falling into pits.

Maybe if we were dedicated to making 'disciples' of Jesus Christ instead of building earthly kingdoms we would feel less need to debate doctrine and prove how right we are. Jesus turned the world upside down by investing His life in discipling twelve men in the truth. He left no legacy of buildings or programs. Jesus did not back down from those trained in 'religion' but spoke the truth in 'meekness.' It seems however that Jesus sought out people who had a heart to know the truth rather than those who wanted to fight over words.

There is another thing that we should learn from Jesus example. The 'religious' who want to debate and argue are deceived. Luke 23:34 "And Jesus said, Father, forgive them ; for they know not what they do." ASV

We must be careful that we do not focus on people as the enemy when we encounter disagreement. Eph 6:12 "For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual (hosts) of wickedness in the heavenly (places)." ASV We must remember that our motive in discussing doctrine is LOVE for the individual or individuals that we are facing. Any feelings of hostility MUST be directed at the spirits who are veiling their eyes from the truth.

I will always embrace a brother or sister in the Lord who disagrees with my doctrine but clearly shows that their motive is for my good and not their superiority. Their demonstration of valuing me as a person regardless of my beliefs opens my heart and mind to hear what they have to say. I become sharpened in my understanding of truth by their humble, compassionate interaction and exchange.

May God fill all of us with the right motive.


_________________
Jeff Smith

 2006/3/12 23:12Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: change the world - our calling (?)

Quote:
in all these years of "hot debate" over doctrine I have never seen anyone won over or converted to the "correct" way of thinking. I have however seen many repent of erroneous beliefs when approached gently, humbly, and in love.



Amen! It is not our job to change the minds of anyone, because we can't control them. But we are always responsibile to love and respect others. THAT we can control.

Setting ourselves as "above" another is perhaps a temptation that is associated with being "evangelical". It has been so ingrained in us that our role is change the world. We have the answers.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/12 23:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roadsign wrote:
Quote:
in all these years of "hot debate" over doctrine I have never seen anyone won over or converted to the "correct" way of thinking. I have however seen many repent of erroneous beliefs when approached gently, humbly, and in love.



Amen! It is not our job to change the minds of anyone, because we can't control them. But we are always responsibile to love and respect others. THAT we can control.

Setting ourselves as "above" another is perhaps a temptation that is associated with being "evangelical". It has been so ingrained in us that our role is change the world. We have the answers.
Diane




To the brother quoted above .... I know 3 Missionaries who have Apologetic/Discernment Ministries .... are they wrong ? .... and can you explain from the Greek, the definition of a "Disciple" ? ... as you did with "strive" and show the 6 different words for "strive" in the N.T. and where and how they are used ?


Diane, why do you post here many times to others on certain threads and why do you have a website ?


I ask these questions with the same love and concern that I believe we're all seeking here. Believe that or not.

Do we see who is judging now by the same methods others are being accused of ?


Annie

 2006/3/13 0:30





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