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 A PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE?

Good morning everyone!

There has been a lot of discussion receently on this forum about tongues. I have offered my 3 cents worth, stating that I do not believe tongues ceased with the apostles, however I also believe that most of the tongues we see in the church today are not legitimate.

I would like to take this a step further with the following article about tongues as a "prayer language". I read this over the weekend and I found it to be quite sensible. I do [b]not[/b] agree with the author's position that tongues are not for today... but I [b]do[/b] find a lot in this article that I agree with.

I would like to kick off a discussion about "prayer language" with this article... give it a read and let me know what you think.

[i](This may be moved to the "doctrine" forum... wasnt sure if this would be ok in the "Lounge" or not...)[/i]

Krispy

[u][b]A PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE?[/b][/u]

[i]Fundamental Baptist Information Service[/i]

Pentecostals and Charismatics often teach that there are two types of tongues described in the New Testament: the "public language tongues" of Pentecost and the "private prayer" tongues of 1 Corinthians 14:4 -- "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." Some call this distinction "ministry tongues" and "devotional tongues."

Early Pentecostal leaders understood that biblical tongues were real earthly languages. They even thought they would be able to go to foreign mission fields and witness through miraculous tongues without having to learn the languages. Those who attempted this, though, returned bitterly disappointed!

"Alfred G. Garr and his wife went to the Far East with the conviction that they could preach the gospel in 'the Indian and Chinese languages.' Lucy Farrow went to Africa and returned after seven months during which she was alleged to have preached to the natives in their own 'Kru language.' The German pastor and analyst Oskar Pfister reported the case of a Pentecostal... 'Simon,' who had planned to go to China using tongues for preaching. Numerous other Pentecostal missionaries went abroad believing they had the miraculous ability to speak in the languages of those to whom they were sent. These Pentecostal claims were well known at the time. S.C. Todd of the Bible Missionary Society investigated eighteen Pentecostals who went to Japan, China, and India 'expecting to preach to the natives in those countries in their own tongue,' and found that by their own admission 'in no single instance have [they] been able to do so.' As these and other missionaries returned in disappointment and failure, Pentecostals were compelled to rethink their original view of speaking in tongues" (Robert Mapes Anderson, Vision of the Disinherited: The Making of American Pentecostalism).

The conclusion was soon reached that their "tongues" were not earthly languages but a "heavenly" or special prayer language; and those are the terms we have heard frequently at large Charismatic conferences, such as those in New Orleans in 1987, Indianapolis in 1990, and St. Louis in 2000. The tongues that I heard in these conferences were not languages of any sort, but merely repetitious mumblings that anyone could imitate. Larry Lea supposedly spoke in tongues in Indianapolis in 1990, and this is a key example of what is being passed off for tongues in the Charismatic movement. It went something like this: "Bubblyida bubblyida hallelujah bubblyida hallabubbly shallabubblyida kolabubblyida glooooory hallelujah bubblyida." I wrote that down as he was saying it and later checked it against the tape. Nancy Kellar, a Roman Catholic nun who was on the executive committee of the St. Louis meeting in 2000, spoke in "tongues" on Thursday evening of the conference. Her tongues went like this: "Shananaa leea, shananaa higha, shananaa nanaa, shananaa leeaŠ" repeated over and over and over.

If you think I'm making fun of these people, you are wrong. This is taken directly from the audiotapes of the messages. If these are languages, they certainly have a simple vocabulary! My children had a more complex language than that when they were still toddlers.

Michael Harper says: "In the short history of the Charismatic Renewal speaking in tongues has become rare in public, but continues to be a vital expression of prayer in private (These Wonderful Gifts, 1989, p. 97). He says this type of "tongues" is "a prayer language: a way of communicating more effectively with God" (p. 92). He claims that this experience "edifies" apart from the understanding: "Modern Western man finds it hard to believe that speaking unknown words to God can possibly be edifying. ... All one can say is 'try it and see'. I can still remember today the moments when I first used this gift, and the immediate awareness I had that I was being edified. This is one of the most important reasons why the gift needs to be used regularly in private prayer" (These Wonderful Gifts, p. 93). Harper says he is mystically aware of being edified even though he does not know what he is saying. He also says this "gift needs to be used regularly" and is therefore something important for the Christian life.

To prove his point he simply invites the skeptical observer to "try it and see," reminding us that experience is the Charismatic's greatest authority. (The "come and see" approach creates a new problem, though, for the Bible never says to "try tongues" or to seek after tongues and never describes how one could learn how to speak in tongues. In the Bible, speaking in tongues is always a supernatural activity that is sovereignly given by God.)

Even some that do not claim to be Pentecostals or Charismatics have this experience. Jerry Rankin, head of the International Mission Board (Southern Baptist), says he speaks in a "private prayer language" and contrasts this with the practice of "glossolalia."

"I do have a private prayer language, have for more than 30 years. I don't consider myself to have a gift of tongues. I've never been led to practice glossolalia, you know, publicly, and I think the spiritual gifts clearly in the didactic passage of the Scriptures are talking about the public uses, edification and gifts in the church. ... I've never viewed personally my intimacy with the Lord and the way His Spirit guides me in my prayer time as being the same as glossolalia and subjected to that criteria. ... I just want God to have freedom to do everything that He wants to do in my life and I'm going to be obedient to that" ("IMB president speaks plainly with state editors about private prayer language," Baptist Press, Feb. 17, 2006).

It is a wonderful thing to desire to do God's will wherever that leads, but He will never lead contrary to His own Word in the Scriptures. For the following reasons we are convinced that the Bible does not support the doctrine of a "private prayer language."

[b]FIRST, PAUL SAID THE TONGUES SPEAKER EDIFIES HIMSELF (1 Cor. 14:4)[/b]
That would not be possible unless the words could be understood, because throughout the fourteenth chapter of 1 Corinthians Paul says that understanding is necessary for edification. In verse 3 he says that prophesying edifies because it comforts and exhorts men, obviously referring to things that are understood to the hearer. In verse 4 he says that tongues speaking does not edify unless it is interpreted. In verses 16-17 he says that if someone does not understand something he is not edified. Words could not be plainer. If there is no edification of the church without understanding, how is it that the individual believer could be edified without understanding? This is confusion. The word "edify" means to build up in the faith. Webster's 1828 dictionary defined it as "to instruct and improve the mind in knowledge generally, and particularly in moral and religious knowledge, in faith and holiness." The words "edify," "edification," "edified," and "edifying" are used in 18 verses in the New Testament and always refer to building up in the faith by means of instruction and godly living. For example, in Ephesians 4 the body of Christ is edified through the ministry of God-given preachers (Eph. 4:11-12).

[b]SECOND, IF THE TONGUES OF 1 CORINTHIANS 14 IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF ACTS 2, THE BIBLE NEVER EXPLAINS THE DIFFERENCE[/b]
We leave"tongues" in the book of Acts (the last mention is in Acts 19:6) and we do not see them again until 1 Corinthians 12-14. If the "tongues" in this epistle is a different type of thing than the "tongues" in Acts, why doesn't the Bible say so?

[b]THIRD, PAUL SAYS THAT TONGUES ARE AN EARTHLY LANGUAGE (1 Cor. 14:20-22)[/b]
If tongues were some sort of "private prayer language," why would Paul give this prophetic explanation of it and state dogmatically that it is an earthly language? He does not say that some types of tongues are languages and others are not.

[b]FOURTH, IN 1 COR. 14:28 PAUL SAYS THE TONGUES SPEAKER SPEAKS BOTH TO HIMSELF AND TO GOD[/b]
"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." This means that he can understand what he is speaking. Otherwise, how could he speak to himself? Does anyone speak to himself in "unknown gibberish"?

[b]FIFTH, IF THERE WERE A "PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE" THAT EDIFIED THE CHRISTIAN'S LIFE IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT AND THE BIBLE WOULD EXPLAIN IT CLEARLY AND CIRCUMSCRIBE ITS USAGE AS IT DOES THE USE OF TONGUES IN THE CHURCH[/b]
Further, a "private prayer language" that helped the Christian to be stronger in his walk with Christ would doubtless be mentioned in other places in the New Testament in the context of sanctification and Christian living. In fact, though, it is never mentioned in such a context. The apostles and prophets addressed many situations in the New Testament epistles and gave all things necessary for holy Christian living, but they never taught that the believer needs to speak in a "private prayer language" in order to have spiritual victory.

[b]SIXTH, IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT TONGUES-SPEAKING COULD BE A NECESSARY PART OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE, BECAUSE PAUL PLAINLY STATES THAT NOT ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES (1 Cor. 14:29-20)[/b]
Some will ask, "Why, then, does Paul say, 'I would that ye all spake with tongues'" (1 Cor. 14:5)? We answer that Paul was not saying that they all did speak with tongues or that they all could speak with tongues; he was merely expressing a desire that the exercise of spiritual gifts be done and that it be done right. Paul is looking upon tongues when it is interpreted as another form of prophesying and both were effective in edifying the church, and his burden was to see the church edified in every way. He said, "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying." Note that the apostle exalted prophesying above tongues, but the Charismatic movement focuses on tongues more than prophesying.

[b]SEVENTH, ALL OF THE NEW TESTAMENT'S INSTRUCTION ABOUT PRAYER TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT PRAYER IS A CONSCIOUS, WILLFUL, UNDERSTANDABLE ACT ON THE PART OF THE BELIEVER AND THAT HE IS SPEAKING TO GOD IN UNDERSTANDABLE TERMS[/b]
We see this in Jesus' instructions about prayer. "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" (Matt. 6:5-13). We also see this in Paul's instructions about prayer (i.e., Rom. 15:30-32; Eph. 6:18-20; Col. 4:2-3; Heb. 13:18-19). There is not one example of a prayer recorded in Scripture that is anything other than an individual speaking to God in understandable terms. In fact, Christ forbade the repetitious type of "prayers" that are commonly heard among those that practice a "private prayer language." "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Mat. 6:7). Yet I have oftentimes heard "prayer tongues" that sound like this: "Shalalama, balalama, shalalama, balalama, bubalama, shalalama, bugalala, shalalama...." Whatever that is, it is not New Testament "tongues" and it is not New Testament prayer.

[b]EIGHTH, EVEN IF WE WERE TO AGREE THAT 1 COR. 14 REFERS TO A "PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE," IT WOULD NOT BE SOMETHING THAT COULD BE LEARNED OR IMITATED[/b]
Whatever is described in 1 Corinthians 14 is a divine miracle, but this is contrary to the Pentecostal-Charismatic practice whereby people are taught to speak in a "prayer language." This brings us to our final point.

[b]NINTH, THE PRACTICE OF LEARNING HOW TO SPEAK IN TONGUES THAT IS POPULAR AMONG PENTECOSTALS AND CHARISMATICS IS UNSCRIPTURAL AND DANGEROUS[/b]
If we were to agree that there is such a thing as a "private prayer language" and that it would help us live a better Christian life and if we were to accept the Charismatic's challenge to "try it and see," the next question is, "How do I begin to speak in this 'prayer language'?" A chapter in the book These Wonderful Gifts (by Michael Harper) is entitled "Letting Go and Letting God," in which the believer is instructed to stop analyzing experiences so carefully and strictly, to stop "setting up alarm systems" and "squatting nervously behind protective walls." He says the believer should step out from behind his "walls and infallible systems" and just open up to God. That is a necessary but unscriptural and exceedingly dangerous step toward receiving the Charismatic experiences. Having stopped analyzing everything with Scripture, the standard method of experiencing the "gift of tongues" or a "privateprayer language" is to open one's mouth and to start speaking words but not words that one understands and allegedly "God will take control." Dennis Bennett says: "Open your mouth and show that you believe the Lord has baptized you in the Spirit by beginning to speak. Don't speak English, or any other language you know, for God can't guide you to speak in tongues if you are speaking in a language known to you. ... Just like a child learning to talk for the first time, open your mouth and speak out the first syllables and expressions that come to your lips. ... You may begin to speak, but only get out a few halting sounds. That's wonderful! You've broken the 'sound barrier'! Keep in with those sounds. Offer them to God. Tell Jesus you love Him in those 'joyful noises'! In a very real sense, any sound you make, offering your tongue to God in simple faith, may be the beginning of speaking in tongues" (The Holy Spirit and You, pp. 76, 77, 79).

This is so grossly unscriptural and nonsensical it would not seem necessary to refute it. There is absolutely nothing like this in the New Testament. To ignore the Bible and to seek something that the Bible never says seek in ways the Bible does not support and to open oneself uncritically to religious experiences like this puts oneself in danger of receiving "another spirit" (2 Cor. 11:4).

 2006/3/6 10:34
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2730
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: A PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE?

There are some good points made but, it seems strange that the author never deals with these verses...

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co 14:14-15)

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2006/3/6 11:10Profile









 Re:

Good point... any thoughts?

Krispy

 2006/3/6 11:16
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re: A PRIVATE PRAYER LANGUAGE?

Quote:
THIRD, PAUL SAYS THAT TONGUES ARE AN EARTHLY LANGUAGE (1 Cor. 14:20-22)
If tongues were some sort of "private prayer language," why would Paul give this prophetic explanation of it and state dogmatically that it is an earthly language? He does not say that some types of tongues are languages and others are not.



I couldn't tell from reading the scripture he mentioned dogmatically saying that it is an earthly language.

Quote:
Whatever is described in 1 Corinthians 14 is a divine miracle, but this is contrary to the Pentecostal-Charismatic practice whereby people are taught to speak in a "prayer language." This brings us to our final point.


I would agree with that. Although, I have been in many "pentecostal meetings" and never heard anyone being taught how to "speak in tongues" other than just pray to God and ask him for it.

Ron mentioned a great point. If the writer wants to crush what he believes to be false then he has to tackle the very verse that most would use to prove it.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2006/3/6 12:12Profile









 Re:

I emailed the author to ask for clarification of his position on 1Co 14:14-15.

If I hear back from him I will post it.

In the meantime, anyone have any thoughts pro or con?

Krispy

 2006/3/6 14:04









 Re:

I suspect that the author has never spoken in tongues, because he uses man's logic to suggest that one could only be edified if one could understand what one had spoken.

Whereas, that's the whole point about tongues... it is a [i]spiritual[/i] gift, and the user is edified by the Spirit, not by the understanding. One understands one has been edified because one experiences many aspects of edification.

Further, if one could understand the tongue, then one would have the gift of interpretation, and we know that is not necessary for tongues either to be given or used.

PP mentioned that the verses in 1 Cor 14 don't support Paul declaiming that those tongues would be an earthly language.... I agree. The unbeliever thinks the tongue-speaker is mad precisely because if there is no interpretation it appears to be a waste of time for anyone but the tongue-speaker. But, a prophecy (not in tongues) is immediately comprehensible to the outsider/uunbeliever and they are more likely to recognise what God is speaking to them personally.

I have shared elsewhere about a friend who went to church for the first time, and heard God speaking to her in her own language, even though the tongue was NOT in her own language. I think this proves that the tongue-speaker also can understand something of what God is speaking to them through the exercise of the gift of tongues, even when it is not for the whole church through the help of one with the gift of interpretation.

The author quotes Eph 4:11 + 12, and again, this is man's logic at work, because the important verses which correlate with 1 Cor 14 - BODY MINISTRY - are Eph 4:15 + 16, in which there is a most important phrase 'every part'.

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head -- Christ -- 16 from whom [u]the whole body[/u], joined and knit together [u]by what every joint supplies[/u], according to the effective working by which [u]every part does its share[/u], causes growth of the body for [u]the [b]edifying[/b] of itself[/u] in love.

 2006/3/7 8:35
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I placed this under Preacher Parsleys post because I wanted to add somethin more to what he stated about tongues--earthly or heavenly?
In 1Cor 13:1 its is by implication that some tongues are a heavenly language. Most fundamentalist later site verses about the perfect and tongues being done away with, I've even heard them say we are no Longer children and so tongues are not for today, however that chapter while mentioning tongues is really only dealing with our attitude of LOVE, doing all things in love. I would guess that while we pray in an unknown language in our secret closet of prayer, the Spirit who knows the will and mind of God is discerning the thoughts and intents of our hearts and making intercession for us according to the will of God. I believe it is impossible for us to pray for ourselves and others at times and know what in the world God is doing. Sometimes life just doesn't make sense to us, it's in thoughs times I personally am thankful for this wonder gift that surpasses my understanding!


_________________
D.Miller

 2006/3/7 10:33Profile









 Re:

Our Greek professor taught us from the Greek that the tongues received at Spirit Baptism is for "personal/private use for prayer and praise" and that "the gift of tongues in 1 Corth 12" is different than the prayer language, where the HOLY Spirit prays what we don't know "what to pray" and also "worships in spirit" for us and also as Paul said - that we can ask for "understanding" when we pray in the Spirit, and that The Spirit will let us know what this burden is, that is being expressed in 'tongues'.

It's a beautiful blessing and good when you're really pressed in and don't know what to pray.

From the language, it seems the one was/is a 'manifestation' of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the other is "the gift of tongues" found in 1Corth. 12:10.
1- Manifestation 2- Gift .

Within these verses in 1Corth. 12, we see the "gift of faith" also ... but all believers have 'faith'.

This (gift) is a Faith, above and beyond the faith given all believers ... so the tongues within the same verses of 1Corth12 are a tongues, 'above and beyond' the "manifestation" of tongues, that is given to every believer when they receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as a sign onto them, that they have indeed, received the Baptism (to avoid question, etc.) and to aid them as their own Prayer and Praise language.

This is brought out in the Greek of these verses, besides in studying the events in the book of Acts.

The numbers by each word below are Strong's Concordance numbering, in order to look up definitions, grammar, etc. of the Greek. If you can read between the numbers, you're doing good.

Definitions of words below each verse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 Corth. 12:4-10 ...

1Co 12:4 Now1161 there are1526 diversities1243 of gifts,5486 but1161 the3588 same846 Spirit.4151

1Co 12:5 And2532 there are1526 differences1243 of administrations,1248 but2532 the3588 same846 Lord.2962

1Co 12:6 And2532 there are1526 diversities1243 of operations,1755 but1161 it is2076 the3588 same846 God2316 which worketh1754 all3956 in1722 all.3956

1Co 12:7 'BUT' 1161 the3588 "manifestation"5321 of the3588 Spirit4151 is given1325 to 'every man'1538 to4314 profit4851 .

Other english versions - 1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the "showing forth" or "manifestaion": of the Spirit to "our profit." Some versions say "common good".

"Manifestation" = G5321 φανερωσις phanerōsis fan-er'-o-sis From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation. Used only in 1Co. 12:7 and 2 Co. 4:2.

".... Is given to Every man to profit withal"

Verse 7 above says in the Greek "THE manifestation." Singular ... not the manifestations. (the gifts)

Now this... the Greek compared to the English ...

1Co 12:8 For1063 to one3739, 3303 is given1325 by1223 the3588 Spirit4151 the word3056 of wisdom;4678 to(1161) another 243 the word3056 of knowledge1108 by2596 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151

Two different words for "another". So far we have #G243 above in red in verse 8.

"Another" = #G243 άλλος allos al'-los A primary word; "else", that is, different (in many applications): - more, one (another), (an-, some an-) other (-s, -wise).

But next in verse 9 we have #G2087 as "another"... and for good reason.

1Co 12:9 To(1161) "another 2087" faith4102 by1722 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151 to(1161) another 243 (as above) the gifts5486 of healing2386 by1722 the3588 same846 Spirit;4151

1st "Another" in vs. 9 - #G2087 έτερος heteros het'-er-os Of uncertain affinity; (an-, the) other or different: - altered, else, next (day), one, (an-) other, some, strange. (Where we get our prefix hetero-sexual).

All Saints have "faith", but this "Gift of Faith" is "different" then the faith that all Saints possess. That is why a different Greek word is used for "another" in this case.

Further in this same verse {9} we have "another" again but it is back to #243, because not "all" are necessarily used in healings, as all do have "faith". Paul had to make sure these folks understood, that the (gift of) faith he was speaking of was totally different then the faith they already possessed.

Remember: The Greek consisted of 24 types of the word "the", so it was the most accurate language in human history. Not one word was used haphazardly or for careless reasons.

1Co 12:10 To(1161) another 243 the working1755 of miracles;1411 to(1161) another 243 prophecy;4394 to(1161) another 243 discerning1253 of spirits;4151 to(1161) another 2087 divers kinds1085 of tongues;1100 to(1161) another 243 the interpretation2058 of tongues:1100

Notice that #243 (allos) for "another" is used four times in verse 10, EXCEPT with the Gift of Tongues.

Only "Faith" and "Tongues" are matched with "heteros" .... Why ?

Why not use #243 for ALL the Gifts ?

All do have faith, AND as seen in the book of Acts and in verse 7 above, the "manifestation" {exhibition or expression} of tongues, is given to all.

Act 10:45,46 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost for G1063 they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

G1063 γάρ gar gar A primary particle; properly assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles): - and, as, because (that), but, even, for indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.

Tongues, the "manifestation" of Spirit Baptism is "given to all", but the "Gift of tongues of 1Co12, 14" is not.

Not all are used to give a message in Tongues {that requires an "interpretation"} in the Church ... but all are given the 'manifestation' (some call tongues, "the evidence of the Baptism") to "profit" .... the Modern KJV says "to our profit" and the NIV says "common good". But whatever profits one part (person) in the Body, profits all.

The 'Manifestation' given upon Baptism in the Holy Spirit, is 'for personal use' for prayer and praise 1Co 14:13-15.

This "different" #G2087 - "heteros tongues", is as different as "the gift of faith" is different from the faith we all have.

Again, only the gifts of "faith and tongues" have the word "heteros" used with them... the rest just use "allos".

In Chapter 14 Paul is trying to teach these people how to use the "manifestation of the Spirit".

It was all new to them, so of course there was some messing up with this "new thing".

They were getting out of control with their speaking/praying/praising in tongues. (As they still do :)

Not all are used in the "gift of tongues" from the verses above, so it appears that they were just praying or praising in tongues {14:2 & 4 "speaketh to God" & "edifieth himself"} OUT LOUD and causing confusion.

It was because they all had tongues, that the confusion was happening.

Tongues - when it is "Interpreted" equals Prophecy, according to this chapter.

Prophecy is not always prophesying the future , but also the giving of a direct word for the moment, directly from God at that moment.

That is why Paul said, desire "prophecy" over showing off your tongues ... because your tongues doesn't profit anyone else, UNLESS you also Interpret ... 14:5 & 13-15 ... then it is worth something to others.

Mar 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: {Acts 2:3,4}

1 Corth. 13, The Love Chpt., was "sandwiched" between Chapters 12 and 14 (the gifts and their use chpt.s) for a very specific reason.

1Co 13:1,2 If I speak with the languages of men or of angels (not just earthly languages), but don't have LOVE, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have LOVE, I am nothing. ETC.ETC. LOVE...


Sorry so messy, but I wanted to have the Strong's numbers up for anyone who wanted to check on this.

God Bless.

 2006/3/7 12:10









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:
I suspect that the author has never spoken in tongues, because he uses man's logic to suggest that one could only be edified if one could understand what one had spoken.

Whereas, that's the whole point about tongues... it is a [i]spiritual[/i] gift, and the user is edified by the Spirit, not by the understanding. One understands one has been edified because one experiences many aspects of edification.

Further, if one could understand the tongue, then one would have the gift of interpretation, and we know that is not necessary for tongues either to be given or used.

PP mentioned that the verses in 1 Cor 14 don't support Paul declaiming that those tongues would be an earthly language.... I agree. The unbeliever thinks the tongue-speaker is mad precisely because if there is no interpretation it appears to be a waste of time for anyone but the tongue-speaker. But, a prophecy (not in tongues) is immediately comprehensible to the outsider/uunbeliever and they are more likely to recognise what God is speaking to them personally.

[u]I have shared elsewhere about a friend who went to church for the first time, and heard God speaking to her in her own language, even though the tongue was NOT in her own language. I think this proves that the tongue-speaker also can understand something of what God is speaking to them through the exercise of the gift of tongues, even when it is not for the whole church through the help of one with the gift of interpretation.[/u]

The author quotes Eph 4:11 + 12, and again, this is man's logic at work, because the important verses which correlate with 1 Cor 14 - BODY MINISTRY - are Eph 4:15 + 16, in which there is a most important phrase 'every part'.

15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head -- Christ -- 16 from whom [u]the whole body[/u], joined and knit together [u]by what every joint supplies[/u], according to the effective working by which [u]every part does its share[/u], causes growth of the body for [u]the [b]edifying[/b] of itself[/u] in love.




the post is good so I didn't want to subtract any paragraphs ... but the underlined paragraph spoke to my heart.

In 1979 at Chapel at Bible College, the Lord gave me a song in a sort of Chinese sounding language in PRAISE.

I just 'sang' and had such a joy that I'll never forget that event ... but never did I sing or speak in "that" language ever again.

But in 2000 I was so busted up inside over so many things I could just about praise at all, in any way at all.
We had gotten under a new pastor who would beat the sheep, verbally and the 'church' was so oppressive that my spirit was so grieved in physically hurt.

Anyhow, one dear Sister there began to sing in that Chinese type language and it came 'at' me like God Himself saying "remember when ?" and my spirit was lifted and I was strenghtened in spirit.

Afterwards I went to tell her how that had set me free to worship and healed my wounded spirit and she said ... "I never sang or spoke 'that' type language before and I doubted where it had come from or why."

:-D Neat !!!

 2006/3/7 12:23









 Re: Exercising tongues


Dear Annie,

You are indeed encouraging my soul today. Thank you. :-D

Something has occurred to me about what I wrote above:

Quote:
I think this proves that the tongue-speaker also can understand something of what [b]God is speaking to them through the exercise of the gift[/b] of tongues,

This is like the precious understanding brought to our attention by the Psalmist in ch 116:12
[b]What shall I render unto the LORD[/b] for all his benefits toward me?
13 [b]I will take the cup of salvation[/b], and call upon the name of the LORD.

We think we're ministering to God through the Spirit (and we are) but the whole point of it that [b][i]He[/i][/b] should have another opportunity to [i]bless [b]us[/b][/i], [u]if[/u] we will be open to receive from Him. This is the the love affair in action.

 2006/3/7 12:54





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