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TaKa
Member



Joined: 2003/4/17
Posts: 124
Louisiana

 Homosexual Pastor says People are born Gay

Hello my friends! I would REALLY like your opinions on this matter. A very good friend of mine sent me this via email, and I'm at odds with him on this subject. Please read this article first:

http://www.cathedralofhope.com/homosexuality/index.php


This is my response:



"Much of Western culture's homophobia can find its roots in our Judeo-Christian heritage."

I don't think it's the heritage that's the problem, but people who think they're better than everybody else just because they're a christian.

"Considering the relatively small amount of attention the Bible gives to the subject, we must ask ourselves why this is such a volatile issue while other subjects (e.g. judgment, pride, hypocrisy) about which the scriptures say a great deal, receive much less passionate attention."

VERY GOOD POINT!

Mat 21:28-31 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Jesus told the chief priests and the elders of the people that prostitutes would get into heaven before they would because of their pride.

"Early writers had no understanding of homosexuality as a psycho-sexual orientation."

I'm not sure if modern psychology has helped us or harmed us as christians. That's something I've struggled with personally. On the other hand, just because I had a bad experience with it doesn't mean that it can't help someone else to understand themselves better.

"A chief text for condemnation of homosexuality has been the Sodom story ... The story deserves another reading by all of us."

I think Reverend Piazza missed a good scripture to make his point with on this one:

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

The sins of Sodom were pride, gluttony, laziness, and lack of care for the poor in that city. This verse says nothing about homosexuality.

"Jesus saw injustice and religious hypocrisy as far greater to the Realm of God."

Once again: very true!


Reverend Piazza: "It is only in our day that the Kinsey Institute has demonstrated that sexual orientation is likely determined prior to birth. It could well be that those to whom Jesus refers as being "born eunuchs" are the people we call lesbian or gay.

Certainly most competent psychologist would concur that sexual orientation is set prior to the age of five in most persons. It is, therefore, not a matter of choice, so it cannot be a moral or ethical issue."

Judith A. Reisman, Ph.D., author of, Kinsey, Crimes & Consequences:

"Absent concepts of sin and immorality, psychiatry and psychology rely on sex scientists to inform the professions on sexuality issues. Thus, following the Kinsey model that all sodomy is normal and natural, the American Psychiatric Association determined homosexuality, sadism and pedophilia can also be normal and unproblematic.

Kinsey's pedophile data, claiming that children are sexual from birth, are carved into the fabric of science, pedagogy and law. This "is still taught to psychiatrists, pediatricians, psychologists, sexologists, pedagogues, law and justice professionals, media moguls, theologians, publicpolicy makers, and other movers and shakers worldwide.

What has not been brought out fully in some coming out studies is the role of guide, teacher, or helping hand in either the signification state, the
coming-out-stage, or both ... the often benign and helpful role that older, more experienced homosexual men play with regard to younger males.

Scientifically, there are no genetically born gay youth . Many school administrators that have initiated gay youth programs, have done so believing that gay youth commit suicide more than other youth and that these suicides are a result of the lack of acceptance of their gayness rather than the children's traumatic lives which routinely include early sexual abuse.

Why is Kinsey's role as the father of sex science important to any debate about homosexual and sex education in the schools? The mandate to teach bi/homosexual and heterosexual experimentation as legitimate for children and youths originated with Kinsey's data which formulated a revolutionary belief in child and juvenile sexual needand entitlement.

There are several hundred homosexual recovery organizations nationwide. As with the alcohol recovery movement, which was disparaged for decades until proof of success slowly emerged, there areincreasing reports and personal testimonies of restoration."

Merriam-Webster Dictionary says that orientation is "a usually general or lasting direction of thought, inclination, or interest."

Are people born with one disposition or the other, or do they become interested in one or the other by the way their thoughts are directed through learning from others?

I think that saying we are born with it is kind of like the extreme Calvinist who says that some people are predetermined to be saved and some are predetermined to be damned. They say there is no free will, and that a certain lifestyle cannot be chosen by an individual because their destiny is totally controlled by the predetermined sovereignty of God.

Some liken discrimination againsts gay people the same thing as discrimination against people of color. We have no control over what color we will be when we are born. If orientation is whatMerriam-Webster says it is, a " direction of thought, inclination, or interest," can a person not possibly have their thoughts, inclinations or interests changed over time? Or is the Calvinist right when he says there is no such thing as free will?

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If there is no such thing as free will or choosing a certain lifestyle, how could Joshua say "choose you this day whom ye will serve"?

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on this point. I don't think there's anything genetic about choosing a particular lifestyle. I think that our thoughts and inclinations can be influenced and changed.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

"What Paul was referring to was homosexual temple prostitution which was performed by various cults (through far more cults used heterosexual prostitution). Again, Paul is not referring to same-sex love, and he clearly has no concept of persons for whom this lifestyle is natural."

In Romans 1:31 and 2 Timothy 3:3 we see Paul using the term "natural affection."
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Without natural affection (astorgous). Late word, a privative and storgē, love of kindred. In N.T. only here and 2Ti 3:3. (Robertson's Word Pictures)

2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good.

Without natural affection (ἄστοργοι)
Only here and Rom 1:31. olxx. See on ἀγάπη love, Gal 5:22, under στέργειν to love with a natural affection. (Vincent's Word Studies)

Roberson says, "love of kindred" and Vincent says, "love with natural affection."

I think Paul was talking about love in these 2 verses.

One key verse that Brother Piazza mentions that could be argued strongly for either side of a debate on homosexuality is 1 Timothy 1:8-11.

Some translations render from the Greek the words "homosexual offenders" and others say "effeminate" or something else entirely. It all depends on which Bible is your personal favorite. The debate over which translation(s) are better than others has always been with us, and I think it always will be.

"The final and central message of he New Testament is that ALL persons are loved by God so much that God's Son was sent as a means of redemption from a disease by which we are all afflicted. The cure for this disease cannot be found in any set of actions."

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice how Ephesians says that we are not saved by works, but that we are still to do them.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son.

Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Grace comes through faith AND obedience. Abraham was saved by faith, but because he had faith, he walked in obedience. His obedience was the evidence of his faith.

It's just like James said: We show our faith by our works. James taught that works is the fruit (or evidence) of our faith:

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Jam 2:17-18 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jam 2:22-24 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Read again the illustration Jesus gives of the final judgement in Mat 25:31-46. In the end, he separates the sheep and the goats according to what they did and didn't do.

Yes, Gods love is unconditional, but is God's forgiveness unconditional?

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

This is an if/then statement. Whenever you have an if/then statement, a condition must be met in order for a certain result to happen. What is the condition? To humble ourselves and pray, and to turn from our wicked ways. The result: We will then have God's attention and He will hear from heaven and forgive our sin and heal our land.

In closing, I would like to say that this verse is speaking to all of us, no matter what side of the homosexuality issue we might choose to take. We should humble ourselves before God and we should also humble oursevles in regard to our relations with one another. Hate is never an option. All have sinned regardless of what type of sin that may be. If you're one who wants to compare sins, I think the prideful ones who believe they're better than someone else because they don't partake in certain types of sin will lose every time because, as I stated before, Jesus told the chief priests and the elders of the people that prostitutes would get into heaven before they would because of their pride.

"Jesus' supreme command is to love God and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves."

So let's stop comparing who's sin is worse because, as the apostle Paul said, we dare not compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves are not wise (2Co 10:12).

If we can agree on anything, we all agree that LOVE is the better way!







_________________
Troy

 2006/3/6 10:16Profile
Greenquality
Member



Joined: 2006/1/26
Posts: 189
mountains of Pa.

 Re: Homosexual Pastor says People are born Gay

I believe this is false teaching. a good post bye the way!as i read the posted page,i felt there is misleading of true purpose of comeing to christ,that is to help us over to come our sinful ways,by repenting! and their is no repenting or sign true guilt or wrong doing, like it is ok! you can't help it your born this way.than what hope do we really have?(( What if a pator was on crack,and said it's ok I was born this way,and no where does it say antthing in the bible about being on crack is bad.((It's sad when some one uses the cross to keep their pridefull sin,as a banner of love))

 2006/3/6 16:02Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

The best verse for someone who claims they were born gay, or born any other way that has them toward a certain bend:

John 3:3 'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.'


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/3/7 21:39Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I think that this is a very interesting topic, and one which I have given much thought to as of late.
One of the main things that concerns me is the fact that the church seems to treat homosexual people similar to how the Pharisees treated lepers, or people born blind etc.. Yet within their own congregations there are practicing adulterers, practicing liars, and others practicing whatever their pet sin is. So to get attention off themselves they quickly point the finger at the homosexual community and say "well look at how terrible their sin is"
If my memory serves me right, Jesus said to them "you are they which justify yourselves before men."
Now on to one of the favorite arguments from the homosexual camp: Jesus said nothing against homosexuality.
No He did not say anyhting about homosexuals that is true, but He did say that fornication was wrong, as well as adultery. Since these are committed mostly outside of marriage, then we would see a need for people to be married to engage in sexual relationships and have Christ's approval. So what did Jesus say about marriage?
"Mt 19:3 ¶ The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?Mt 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them[b]at the beginning made them male and female,[/b]Mt 19:5 And said, For this cause shall [b]a man [/b] leave father and mother, and shall cleave to [b]his wife[/b]: and they twain shall be one flesh?"
So we can clearly see that Jesus' idea of marriage was one man and one woman, and anything outside of that is not His idea of marriage at all.
Bottom line though is as I have found, there is a way to share the Gospel with homosexual people without even bringing up the gay issue. You simply take them through the Law, and soon the Spirit convicts them without even bringing it up. I once had a lesbian thank me for explaining it to her that way. Lord willing she has repented.
Bottom line #2 is that if the Church were walking in holiness as it should, we would have less need to find someone whos' sins are worse than ours because our holy lives would be a light to them.
Let me know what y'all think. :-P


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patrick heaviside

 2006/3/7 23:04Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: root cause of sin

Quote:
if the Church were walking in holiness as it should, we would have less need to find someone whos' sins are worse than ours because our holy lives would be a light to them


Well said, RoaringLamb!! Perhaps you have touched the REAL issue. Ouch!!!!
Quote:
Pastor says People are born Gay


I say, Why bother disputing this? Are we not ALL born in sin? Are we not all born separated from God? Do we not all choose paths for our lives apart from God? - that is until he redeems us. Does anyone's "birth defect" give them an "excuse" to follow a path other than Christ? to reject Christ's remedy for their sin, his new nature for their old nature?

Even if one is born with an orientation defect, or aquires it early in childhood (due to circumstances outside of their control), would that make any difference? Would that mean that they don't need divine salvation just like any of us? Can Christ not heal any defect - whether they are born with it, or not?

People have a tendency to define sin as "willfully disobedient" acts, but they disregard the broader definition (which would include themselves in the universal malady).

It is often assumed that a person who suffers something that they "can't help" (like depression), does not require the same repentance as one who "does bad things on purpose". Actually the root cause may be the same. And the solution is the same.

Christ calls his followers to die to self and the old nature - and he offers us a new nature. And that offer goes to everyone - regardless. And the process of healing and growth takes time, and requires our mercy, love, patience and prayers.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/8 8:40Profile
Kory
Member



Joined: 2006/1/24
Posts: 2


 Re:

I tend to believe they are born gay as well. I believe that God didn't create Gays. It's the tare Dna. Blame the fallen ones for that.

Although I did say I believe... it's just what I personally think is the case.

Brokeback mountain - Social engineering at it's best.

 2006/3/9 3:19Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
One of the main things that concerns me is the fact that the church seems to treat homosexual people similar to how the Pharisees treated lepers, or people born blind etc.. Yet within their own congregations there are practicing adulterers, practicing liars, and others practicing whatever their pet sin is. So to get attention off themselves they quickly point the finger at the homosexual community and say "well look at how terrible their sin is"


A very good point and yet there can be just as much of a problem in assuming one 'side' over the other. Something else jumps out there; "community". PreachParsley posted the following a bit back that throws another perspective into all this.[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9645&forum=48]Homosexual Activists' War Against Christianity[/url] While being far from one assuming conspiracy theories and a given generality, the article as a whole does point out some things that are difficult to explain away. More so perhaps is something that is gaining more and more ground in various areas; Taking a misunderstanding and manipulating it, the attempt to make something a 'no win' situation.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/3/9 7:04Profile
groh_frog
Member



Joined: 2005/1/5
Posts: 432


 Re:

Well put, roadsign,

We all have our tendencies towards sin, some in ways different than others. I may be more inclined towards adultery, my brother towards thievery, my sister towards idolatry. Is that an excuse? No! All sin is condemned by God. To think that you can walk in sin and still walk with God is a lie from the pit of Hell! (differentiate this between messing up, as we all do, and walking in sin) Sadly, it's a pretty common lie, even within some of our more "hard-core" churches, taking many forms, excusing homosexuality as acceptable being only one.

 2006/3/9 14:35Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Homosexual Activists' War Against Christianity


Oh there is no doubt that they have an agenda, yet I remember something that Ravenhill said. "Our greatest enemy is not communism, or any other -ism"
Can you imagine though what GOD could do if we got out of the comfort zone, and went after these folks with love, zeal, and Truth.
Check out this quote
"We preach comforting sermons and avoid saying anything from our pulpits which might disturb the respectable views of the comfortable members of our congregations. Have we ministers of Jesus Christ sacrificed Truth on the altar of self-interest, and like Pilate, yielded our convictions to the demands of the crowd"
Martin Luther King Jr.


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patrick heaviside

 2006/3/9 17:06Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

If you believe that a homosexual is born that way, do you agree that it is natural? Is sin natural?


1 : based on an inherent sense of right and wrong —see also NATURAL LAW, NATURAL RIGHT
2 a : existing as part of or determined by nature b : being in accordance with or arising from nature esp. as distinguished from operation of law —see also NATURAL PERSON —compare ARTIFICIAL c : arising from the usual course of events


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2006/3/10 11:00Profile





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