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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Is it wrong to speak out against church abuse?

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sj
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re:

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 2006/3/3 13:15Profile
sj
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re:

.

 2006/3/3 13:18Profile
sj
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re:

.

 2006/3/3 13:38Profile









 Re:

sj, to coin the term of the week ... I have much to say on this ... but I have to weigh my words so as not to cause any more hurt to anyone.

First may I say, that I pray we can disagree on a point and yet still receive from each other !?

ALL things, work together for good, for the purpose of 'us' being conformed to the Image of Christ.

So even this, that you've been through, is for that purpose and that purpose only. See ?
Took me upteen years to see how true this is and whenever I'm slashed to pieces and react back at it ... I have to remember this.

I don't believe the Bible shows us ANYWHERE that we're all to be always syrupy sweet.
Show me any Bible character ... Paul included, who is quoted the most often or Jesus and I'll show you Reaction to non-truths and injustices.

If we get droned out, like peaceful little zombies and are smacked whenever we become zealous for truth ... then something is dead wrong ... because that type "zeal" is what made one brother or sister, throw themselves in front of another brother or sister in the Coliseum with the lions, so that the lion would feed on them and get full and not attack anymore Brethren.
If we don't understand that type zeal for the protection of the Body or Jesus clearing the Temple or Paul's many upset actions or words or Peter's in the book of Acts, then we Won't have the bravery to stand, not only for ourselves but for the brethren set before lions or "ravenous wolves".
Sometimes, the Holy Spirit acts in a way that is not too nice, so to speak, and just a light reading of the book of Acts will prove that out.

Most of our reformers etc. suffered great persecution yet stood and most were burned at the stake. Ravenhill could yell some pretty words.

But here is where I have to switch gears though.
I don't agree with what has gone on down in Pensicola ... I'm sorry. So anything that comes out of there, is to be expected to have it's quirks. I don't want to turn this into a big debate on whether that all was from 'God' or not ... but that aside ... I'd like to say that I have friends who are 24/7 before the Lord.
They don't move without His leading etc.
Yet they've been hurt by a Church years ago and by some employees of theirs a few times now.
Is it because they are not in prayer or The Word ? ... Farrrr from it. But sometimes God allows our 'Discernment' to be blinded, so that we will go in amongst certain people to have "HIS" affect there or come out with wisdom we couldn't have gotten any other way.
We may not even know in this lifetime what 'He' is doing by having us with certain people, but we must know that not a sparrow falls without it being HIS will.

These friends I told you about, even though they are the holiest people I've ever met and the most Christ-like as I've ever met, were cut to the bone by this Church and the pain was immeasurable.
She confided all of that hurt to me and I was surprised that it lasted so long, that she would ever hurt that badly, to still be talking about it.

But that 'talk' was just between her and I.
She had a prayer/bible study group at her house all along anyway, so she just prayed and didn't tell anyone else how tore up she was.
Slowly, one by one, the others left that Church and now without anyone trying to backstab the Church, there's now few left there from the original group.

I think, like I said earlier ... it's the Doctrine we are to Scripturally expose, not any personal hurts.

I think like Krispy mentioned ... God wants to get 'our' Studies right and we sometimes wind up in non-Scriptural movements because we have strayed from truth to please man somehow or are looking for the out of the ordinary tooo much.

I see this as The Lord protecting you and your wife and asking you to re-check your beliefs.

After which ... you will come out stronger from all of this and not be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine or movements and will be able to say "I see" of why God has seperated you from this.

You being the Priest of your home, must seek out what is sound pure doctrinal truth for your wife and children's protection.
That should keep you busy enough, so that your wounds can heal.

I'll close by saying, Yes, I've seen really devoted sincere doctrinally sound folks get torn to shreds in Churches and in most cases, it was because the Church's Doctrines are off and God wanted to get His people OUT of there.

I don't want to discuss FL or NC ... O.K. ? but I will say, I understand "hurt" ... been there, done that, and it cost me my health.

Let's just pray for you, O.K. ?

His Love to you and your dear family.

Shalom, Agape, Truth and Peace.
Annie

 2006/3/3 15:03
sj
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re:

.

 2006/3/3 15:50Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Recommended

Here is a past discussion with accompanying links that may be of some help and counsel. Could not recommend more highly the messages mentioned there from Stephen Kaung on spiritual authority.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6072&forum=35#45127]What isn't "Speaking against God's annointed"[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2006/3/3 15:50Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: abust in large crowds

Quote:
Jesus rebuked people that he had never "earned" a right to speak too. So did John the Baptist. In fact that's what got them killed wasn’t it?


I'm totally with you on this one! There are times when we simply will never "earn" the right in the eyes of the abusers (or their colaborators). We will be silenced - told to keep our mouth shut. (My how handy a lot of verses are for justifying this kind of ungodly rebuke.) However, I do believe that God can lead the way when we must speak out. He can open the door. He can also close the door and instead remove us from the situation.

I did mention the need to take our own responsibility if we are the victim. But I also caution: It is all to easy to say to someone who has been devestated by abuse, "You should know better. Just don't put up with it. Get over it..." These kind of comments express a gross inability to understand the suffering of the victim and their 'role' in the abuse.

I find that spiritual abuse is virtually NEVER discussed in church - or even the concepts. If churches would only listen to the therapists of those who have been damaged by the church, they could learn so much, and prevent a lot of damage.
It's been said that the church keeps psychiatrists in business.

Some churches are healthier than others and I think it has to do with a lot of hidden relational/spiritual dynamics going on - maybe even for generations. Also, as Krispy implied, GOOD DOCTIRNE IS HEALTHY FOR EVERYONE. Sadly people take their dysfunctions into the church and spread it like a disease. Then they make the bible say whatever they want to justify and hide their faulty behaviors.

Almost no one believes that they have bad doctrine. And almost no one believes that they are a perpetrator of abuse.

I don't see mentioned yet the reality of power structure. Sorry to say, but the ground is not level. There are people who simply cannot stand against the abuse of those who hold power and authority - like a child and parent. Indeed, the child may be part of the problem, but they are dependants. They can't just leave or even challenge the problem because that would too threatening. It is like that in any institution.


You mentioned large groups being a safer environment because that avoids the emeshment that can foster abuse. But I would like to challenge that. People in the pupit can use their power, authority, and charisma to heap very suble abuse on eveyone - and lay guilt trips - ex: to get people to tithe, join, trust in THEIR teachings, and far worse. (example.... oh, I better not mention a name) Of course some adherants are more vulnerable than others - depending on their own spiritual/emotional state. Sadly, countless people are very willingly submitting themselves to the manipulation of a very charismatic type of leader. Imagine all the pain that they will encounter when they realize that they were decieved.

We need to learn how to be instruments of healing. You can tell that I have experienced some spiritual abuse in my past, and that is why I am passionate about addressing this topic. Let's keep it going.

I believe that the "beast" in Revelation will be an abuser - seducing the masses to follow him.

Another reason to keep the topic going.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/3 16:09Profile
sj
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Joined: 2005/12/16
Posts: 83


 Re:

.

 2006/3/3 16:40Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
About "not naming names" i know you said that in jest, but in all seriousness what's the problem with doing that?


If I understand the original purpose for this thread it was to seek helpful suggestions for victims of abuse. Now I'm wondering if you asked because you are giving us a test - to see if we have the "right" answers.

Yes, I left off any name (like one that popped into my mind) for a definite reason: because of the tendency of the reader to focus on that person rather than the problem we are discussing here.

We would do far better to learn about the nature of spiritual abuse (ie damaging misuse of power) than merely name names. That way we can see it for what it is and avoid the lure.

Even better than that: we need to understand human nature, ourselves.. see our bent to be part of this problem in religion.

Better yet: Read Mike's attatchments and learn about Godly authority so that we can discern ungodly authority. I got stated in them - delicious stuff!

Even better yet: we need to learn how to make Christ our ultimate authority in our lives. That is the best way to avoid the lure of abusers.

Oh, how could I forget: We need to learn how to effectively minister to those who have been damaged by authority figures of any kind.

Diane

PS: just curious.... how do you feel about the links I suggested... helpful????


_________________
Diane

 2006/3/3 17:09Profile
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
About "not naming names" i know you said that in jest, but in all seriousness what's the problem with doing that?



There is no problem with that, in fact I think it is a necessity. It helps to warn other to be extra leery of those whose names have been named. If names are named other might not be drawn in so far as to be spiritually raped as you put it. Wouldn't you want to know if a sex offender just released from prison moved in next door or down the street. Well the same thing goes for those spiritual rapists who are running churches and ministries in the name of Jesus. And also, I have seen people wake up to the deception they were under when names have been mentioned. A while back I saw that happen to a guy on another forum who said "T.D. Jakes! - Oh my! I would have never thought you were talking about him! I love that guy me and him are hommies! I will definitely check out and research what you say!"

a couple of posts later -

"I checked it out and you are right - that's it I'm done with TBN forever - I'm never going to watch that station again!!!"

Praise the Lord!!!! Now what if the person making the original post was too cowardly to name names? This guy would still be thinking him and Jakes are hommies and watching TBN every night.

No friend, to name names is imperative and necessary. Name are always mentioned in the Scriptures unless everyone knows who is being spoken of (like the guy who was sleeping with his fathers wife in the Corinthian Church - everyone knew who was being spoken of - or I can assure you their would have been a name) In order to follow the Biblical pattern we must name names so that everyone know who we are talking about.

Quote:
If any of you read my last post (the one that was pulled) I'm sure you realize my name is mud right now, because of some of the stuff i said, but I'd rather have it no other way because if I'm wrong then bless God at least I'm not a coward.



I sure hope you post wasn't pulled because of names you mentioned. I have seen numerous names mentioned here on sermonindex (Olsen, Katz, Warren, Reidhead, Bickle, Joyner, Comfort, Robertson, Graham, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.) if there is some new rule against speaking about specific people or ministries, I lost the memo. Now most of these discussion were concerning the Scriptural validity of doctrinal issues and the such. But if one was to have first hand knowledge of any ministry or teacher/preacher, I can't imagine the moderators of this site pulling the post. Did you receive any explanation of why your post pulled? If it was how you said it that was at issue, I would encourage to repost the names and ministry in a format that is more acceptable to the sites moderators. The moderators (in my experience) have always been willing to discuss such issues.


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2006/3/3 18:02Profile





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