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PreachParsly
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 Preaching to Sinners vs Saints

I have been thinking about this topic much in the last few weeks and today in the thread about which version open-air preachers should use ([url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6888&forum=35]Open Air Preaching; what bible version to use?[/url])just reminded me to start a thread.

This may sound like an obvious question, but there are so many philosopies I would love to hear some imput.

How do we preach to sinners?

Ravenhill once said that the main hinderence to revival is evangelism. Why? Do we preach differently to sinners, than to saints?

What is the thrust of our message to sinners? So many focus on Law. Some focus on Grace. Some on the resurection. Is there anything that needs to preface the preaching of the Gospel?

I'm very familar with Ray Comfort, so no need to reference me to him. I think there are some who disagree with the use of the 'Law' or atleast the terminology. This would be a great place to express your thoughts on this topic.

I'm just throwing some thoughts out there and hoping someone will run with it...

What think ye?


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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/23 13:55Profile
Christinyou
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 Re: Preaching to Sinners vs Saints

I have had a change in venue when it comes to telling sinners or saints what happens when a person believes in the Lord Jesus. I used to listen to the usual churchianity, as to come to church and give your life to Jesus, read your bible, be baptized, get involved in a ministry in the church, pray every morning at 4:30, etc, etc, etc.

What does scripture say, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. This sounds so easy. But, you and I and most people who seek to tell people about Jesus Christ and evangelize them, that is not the way it is.

Of course this is the witness. John 3:15-19 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

It says always be ready with an answer for the Hope that Is in you. 1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

"Every man that asketh," This sounds like if a person asks, then we are to give a reason, which is our earthly thoughts of Who and what Jesus has done in us as Christians. My thoughts are, I am a new creature in Christ Jesus and I have been given a new birth, it is no longer the old I that is living this life, but by being born again of water and Spirit, which is God Himself in Christ Jesus being put in my spirit and now He is my life. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

How much more do I have to do to have eternal life? I think that is it. 1 John 5:9-12 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Simple, not really, it is like saying ok Phillip has as new person in him which is preacher Parsley and everything Phillip says from now on will be Preacher Parsley's words and all that Phillip does is Preacher Parsley's doing. Woops, Phillip does not want to allow this because he is afraid he will loose who he is and the old Phillip wants to fight to keep who he is. Then by The love of Preacher Parsley, Phillip begins to understand, this person that is in me and wants to take over my life is not so bad after all, He wants me to keep who I am and who I was intended to be when He created me. Knowing this I loose nothing but gain the right to say I am a son of Preacher Parsley who is not my real life with the nature which I could never attend to before He exchanged my life for His. Now I am Phillip Preacher Parsley. This maybe stretching it a bit but who am I really? I am Phillip Christ. I am Phillip with a new Life in me and that life is Christ Jesus and am now a part of the Family for whom I was intended to be before the foundation of the world. A Christ Person or as you will, a Christian.

I don't have to do anything to be who I am. But I want to do everything to become who I was intended to be. All I had to do to have eternal life and become a complete new person is believe it and that is who I am. Now that I have all the capacity to become a new person in Christ Jesus, I will do all in my life to become this Person who God, the Father and Oneness with His Son Jesus Christ created me to be in the beginning, "let US create man in OUR Image.

I don't have to do all the things that man say I have to do to become a good Christian, that is the earthly church. Because I by my birthing am all the things that God is by the Christ that is in me. Oh yes, This Birth has also a great Teacher Whom the Father has given me to bring this new birthed Christ in me to fruition that I might be truly a son of God, and that is The Holy Spirit of God Himself Whom this Christ that is in me Has Requested of His Father to come and reveal this truth in me.

Is my salvation secure? Is my revelation of these truth secure? Who am I? Ah, I am a full fledged son of God, this is who I am. What do I have to do?

This is pertaining to the resurrection but it applies in all that we do because of the Life of Christ in us The Hope of Glory.

2 Timothy 2:19-26 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

This is the Great House you become a part of is you will accept the Lord Jesus by believing that He is the Son of God, you will be saved. This is your assurance of salvation, not what you do but by Who You Are. A Christ Person with a whole new life Born Again in you. Now work out this salvation with fear and trembling knowing God Himself in now your Life.

I believe this is the simple Gospel, and we should wait for God to send them to us, seeking Him that we might tell all He sends what this Miracle is. Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/23 15:34Profile
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 Re: Preaching to Sinners vs Saints

Preaching to saints sounds like "preaching to the quire" but I know that isn't the case. We need the wole Word of God with balance in evrything, warnings, encouragements, teaching, repemands, exetra...

The sinner first must know why they need to be saved because they see no reason for it. Accept for the one who already have the Holy Spirit working on him.
Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:(a difference between the one who needs the Law or not, the Law brings fear of God)
:23 And others save with fear(of Gods' Judgment from the Law), pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

The ones who needs compassion is when the Gosple of salvation should be given because they are ready and know why thay need to be saved.

 2006/2/23 19:13Profile
BeYeDoers
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 Re:

Just a note on John 3:16. I think it has been ripped out of context in every modern gospel presentation. We preach it. Jesus didn't. The only record we have of Jesus saying this was to ONE person. Nicodemus, who knew that he was condemned by the Law, came to Christ (fearfully). Jesus then opened him to the gospel telling of God's love. As far as we know, Jesus NEVER preached such a thing to ANYONE else, let alone crowds of prideful, sinloving heathen.

Just one persons perspective on preaching the love of God.

ps. remember Peter's sermon on the first Pentecost following the Resurrection? he never told them how to be saved until they ASKED!


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Denver McDaniel

 2006/2/23 19:22Profile
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 Re:

Joh 3:16
Verse 16. For God so loved. This does not mean that God approved the conduct of men, but that he had benevolent feelings toward them, or was earnestly desirous of their happiness. God hates wickedness, but he still desires the happiness of those who are sinful. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner. A parent may love his child and desire his welfare, and yet be strongly opposed to the conduct of that child. When we approve the conduct of another, this is the love of complacency; when we desire simply their happiness, this is the love of benevolence.
The world. All mankind. It does not mean any particular part of the world, but man as man--the race that had rebelled and that deserved to die. See Joh 6:33; 17:21. His love for the world, or for all mankind, in giving his Son, was shown by these circumstances:

1st. All the world was in ruin, and exposed to the wrath of God.

2nd. All men were in a hopeless condition.

3rd. God gave his Son. Man had no claim on him; it was a gift--an undeserved gift.

4th. He gave him up to extreme sufferings, even the bitter pains of death on the cross.

5th. It was for all the world. He tasted "death for every man," Heb 2:9. He "died for all," 2Co 5:15. "He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world," 1Jo 2:2.

That he gave. It was a free and unmerited gift. Man had no claim; and when there was no eye to pity or arm to save, it pleased God to give his Son into the hands of men to die in their stead, Ga 1:4; Ro 8:32; Lu 22:19. It was the mere movement of love; the expression of eternal compassion, and of a desire that sinners should not perish forever.

John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Only-begotten. This term is never applied by John to any but Jesus Christ. It is applied by him five times to the Saviour, Joh 1:14; 3:16,18; 1Jo 4:9. It means literally an only child. Then, as an only child is peculiarly dear to a parent, it means one that is especially beloved.

It looks to me like the rest of scripture makes John 3:16 a proof of what God has done for those that believe and receive Him as Savior. That new birth is what God intended for those that believe, For God so loves that we might have everlasting life.

His only-begotten Son. Cmt. on Joh 1:14. This is the highest expression of love of which we can conceive. A parent who should give up his only son to die for others who are guilty--if this could or might be done--would show higher love than could be manifested in any other way. So it shows the depth of the love of God, that he was willing to give his only Son into the hands of sinful men that he might be slain, and thus redeem them from eternal sorrow.

He Gave. Praise you Father that you so loved that You Gave. None of us deserves such Great Love, may we, every one thank you for all eternity for Who You are and what you have done In Christ Jesus the Only Begotten Son of God.



{n} "For God" 1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Albert Barns: Notes on the Bible.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/24 2:02Profile
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Quote:
Just a note on John 3:16. I think it has been ripped out of context in every modern gospel presentation. We preach it. Jesus didn't. The only record we have of Jesus saying this was to ONE person. Nicodemus, who knew that he was condemned by the Law, came to Christ (fearfully). Jesus then opened him to the gospel telling of God's love. As far as we know, Jesus NEVER preached such a thing to ANYONE else, let alone crowds of prideful, sinloving heathen.



How far do you take that? Can we only preach to crowds what Jesus preached to the crowds? That would leave out a lot of the New Testement. Should the Epistles be preached to sinners? I know that they were written to saints, but there are many passaged that are directed towards sin.

What is the "Message" to sinners? God is angry? God loves you? REPENT!?

Ofcourse the simple, and truthful answer is "be led by the Spirit." I'm just wondering what you guys think.

Our philosophy on evangelism is VERY important.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/24 9:23Profile
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 Re:

Preach, no I don't think we should limit just to what Jesus preached, I was just throwing in my two cents to make a point that I think many of us focus too much on the love of God, giving it improper balance in evangelism. Alot of people think Jesus preached to the world about God's love when he really often only told those who were sincere about following Him. I was advocating a principle based on my "just a note..." not a method or rule ;-)


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Denver McDaniel

 2006/2/24 9:52Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
God hates wickedness, but he still desires the happiness of those who are sinful. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner.



Christinyou, I'm not so sure God desires "happiness" of the sinful. Could you clarify what you mean? He desires obedience, worship, service, but I don't think he save Paul or Peter or me or you so we could be "happy". In fact He saved Paul to "show him what great things he must suffer for My sake" (Acts 9:16).
As far as God loving the sinner but hating the sin, are you implying that God doesn't hate the sinner? Ps 5:5, Ps 11:5, Pr 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15.
God does hate the sinner, but He also loves them, which is why He sent His Son :-)


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Denver McDaniel

 2006/2/24 10:00Profile
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 Re:

Phl 4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

Happiness is a word, true happiness is a state. The State of being full of Joy in all things for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus.

James 1:2-4 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

I think wanting nothing and having all in Christ would be a pretty good definition of Happy or Joy.

This is happiness: Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have [it] to thyself before God. Happy [is] he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.



God does not see the sin anymore, He see's Christ and His Blood that fell on the altar of This Earth at the foot of the Cross and every drop that fell from the scourging to the Nails. God hates sin and it will be judged but only because the person did not believe in the Son of God, or God's Word is wrong...Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Those who are not convicted and reproofed of this will stay in sin because they did not believe in the Shed Blood of the Lamb. They are in the old covenant, If you sin you shall surely die. That is the Holy Spirits work. Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/24 18:36Profile
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 Re: Preaching to Sinners vs Saints

Quote:
What is the thrust of our message to sinners? So many focus on Law. Some focus on Grace. Some on the resurection. Is there anything that needs to preface the preaching of the Gospel?



J. O. Fraser, a well known missionary to the Lisu in China of the China Inland mission in the early part of the last century, and who saw the Lord move greatly among them, had a wornderful word in his biography, taken from a letter to his mother:

"In preparing my address, I first went through the Acts of the Apostles and some other passages, comparing them with a view to finding out the actual Gospel we are bidden to preach... The result was very instructive to me. I had never imagined the Gospel was so simple. Why, Peter and Paul both preached the gospel in words which would not take one minute to say!

And I found out that there are just four things which seem to be essential in preaching the Gospel.

1. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ - no theological explanation needed.

2. The ressurrection of Jesus Christ - most important of all. The Gospel was never preached without this being brought in.

3. Exortation to hearers to repent of their sins..

4. Promise to all who believe on Jesus Christ that they will recieve remission of sins.

Beyond these four points others are mentioned occasionally, but they are not many... In teaching Christians it is another matter. To them we are to declare "the whole council of God", as far as they can recieve it. But the Gospel as preached to the unsaved is as simple as it could be. I should not care to take the responsibility of preaching "another gospel"."

J. O . Fraser, Behind the Ranges -Frasure of Lisuland by Mrs. Howard Taylor.

And this being so, It must also be understood that because of the hardness of men's hearts, in different periods of church history, the Spirit had different emphasises needed to counteract degradation that had come into the church.

For instance, following the reformation and the Puritan era, stale orthodoxy and formalism had crept into the church and so the Lord impressed those in the Great awakening the need to emphasis the necissity of the New Birth to shake up those who merely had an intellectual knowlege of doctrine but no regeneration.

And so often times it is necessary based on conditions to speak more on one point than another.

But in essence the Gospel is always the same, Our lost condition, Christ's Person and work (crucifixion and resurrection) and the neccesity for us to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. And this issues in the New Birth.

"In the last days. I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh... and it shall be that whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved."

 2006/2/25 12:28Profile





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