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roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: grace as opposed to death

Quote:
When the law is ruling and not grace and truth, sin and death is rampant in the church.


I think this is key, and wonder if you would expound on your words. Don't stop yet!

Ex: What do you mean by death? What are some examples?
Why do sins run rampant?
How can we tell if a church is afflicted with this death-producing malady?
What does a grace church look like?
How does grace set the homosexual free?
How do we get over the fear being permissive or antinomian - and thus permitting the sinner to "live like he wants"?
What is our role in the implementation of grace and truth in the life of the sinner - yes, even the homosexual!?
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/2/17 12:53Profile









 Re:

No one seems to want to focus on the point of this thread. I've tried several times, but when I do the smoke & mirrors show begins.

This is not about whether we should be trying to evanglize homosexuals. Of course we should, just like we would evangelize the bum on the street, the Wall Street trader, and anyone else who does not know the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior. No one is arguing against that. We should reach out to them in love, and try and win them to Christ.

[b]The point of this thread[/b] is this... should Christian leaders (and Christians in general) join hands with [b]unrepentent[/b] sinners (whether they be homosexual or not) in ministry? The answer is obviously [b]no[/b]. To think otherwise is to disregard scripture.

This is a "slippery slope" because it begins with "Why not use a lesbian's gospel song, and acknowledge her in our shows?" ... or "Sure, we'll use a gay actor to portray a missionary in a Christian movie". Then it will be "Let's ban together with this group of homosexuals because they are against abortion" .... and then "Boy, I know he's gay, but he's a great singer. Let's let him lead worship next week" ... and finally we end up with Gay and Lesbian ministers.

Dont think it can happen? Think what you want... but this is exactly what happens. I can even see it with some of the comments on this forum.

This thread has never been about the churches response to unreprentent homosexuals. It's about the church joining hands in ministry with unrepentent homosexuals. If some of you have been wondering why I havent said much up until now... it's because no one wants to discuss the real topic!

Joining hands with unrepentent homosexuals in ministry makes about as much sense as joining the Roman Catholic Church in ministry. This was brought up on another thread and is pretty much the same topic. Evangelicals Together With Catholics. How can light have any fellowship with darkness? The RCC hasnt changed their agenda or doctrines, but many evangelical leaders have! Some even signed a pledge with the RCC to not evangelize Catholics. When we join hands with darkness... darkness always wins.

Krispy

 2006/2/17 13:16
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: a whitewashed wall

Quote:
Joining hands with unrepentent homosexuals in ministry makes about as much sense as joining the Roman Catholic Church in ministry.


And it makes as much sense as Jesus eating with sinners. That WAS his ministry, was it not? It was the Pharisees who where worried about his associations. And Jesus hanging around with the Pharisees was no different than hanging around the RC. The only reason he distanced himself from them was to avoid premature death.

Why do you keep wanting to hold up a "flimsy white-washed wall?" That's like smoke and mirrors. Our religious structure (evangelical) is built on faulty foundations,(law, flesh, ritual, etc, rather than Spirit and truth) and has to be uprooted from the bottom up - a God-job.

I say (as God has often told me when I asked him what to do about the sins I saw in the church), Let the dead bury the dead, and get on with your own walk with Christ. We can't change others, just ourself. And we can't even do that. We humbly seek revival for ourselves and God's people, and let the Spirit do the convicting and the uprooting. And that is not usually very pretty looking.

Quote:
When we join hands with darkness... darkness always wins.

sooooo true.... Perhaps you could say, "Join hearts" May we keep our hearts reserved for God and God alone.
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/2/17 13:47Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: what is ministry

Krispy, I do not wish to belittle your concern, but actually, enlarge it.
You used the word “ministry” where I might be inclined to use the word “entertainment”.
These days “Ministry” is used to refer to anything that happens on a “Christian” stage, but Biblically, it is a servant role, like foot-washing, symbolic of “ministry of reconciliation” (1 Cor. 5) – partners with Christ in the cleansing of hearts, restoring people to Christ.

We have come along way from our true calling. The salt has lost its saltiness, and the Light is dulled, and so the church simply can’t fulfill their God-given ministry. Instead of sinners getting cleansed, they get white-washed. This is where hypocrisy comes in. It shouldn’t be surprising to see the existing church embrace its “own kind” – the non-repentant. Sadly, in its condition it cannot offer the hope of the Gospel when it doesn’t see its own desperate need for the Gospel. (I’m speaking generally)

Think of Ananias and Saphira who lied to the Holy Spirit. Their hypocrisy was a dead serious concern to God, and he removed the defilement. After that no one dared join the church who just wanted to play church (or be entertained).

The readers of 1 John were warned not to invite certain sinners into their homes – certain traveling evangelists – the Gnostics. These people were serious threats to the church. Today the church is embracing all kinds of heretical evangelists. I just have to watch the TV (Miracle Channel) and see where “Christians” are pouring their money. I’d say these kinds of ministry leaders are the most dangerous in our pulpits.

The church continues to sing: “All to Jesus I surrender”, or “I have decided to follow Jesus, no turning back, though no one join me”(That song is one of the best expressions of repentance that I know) If God where to strike everyone dead who was not singing these songs truthfully, but were holding back something, then I wonder how much of the church would be left.

Having said that, I do believe that sinners need to be in an environment where they can see and experience godly people, be involved in the context of healthy relationships, and thus be convicted in their own hearts of the need to change. If we, the church (I mean, God’s people in whatever setting) can’t function as a hospital for sick sinners, then where can sinners witness Christ?
It’s too bad that the church is set up in two parts – the holy of holies (the platform) and the common court (the pews), those who “minister” and those who “receive” it. That is not Biblical, I think, and produces all kinds of issues of who can and who can’t do what, and fosters hypocrisy.

The reality is, we do not have the ideal church, yet God hasn’t stopped working. He has always used means that shock and revolt the religious people. He has used the worst kinds of cracked pots to reveal his glory. There are many examples in Scripture, and if we look, we can see many today.

Am I landing on your wave-length at all?
Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/2/18 6:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:
And it makes as much sense as Jesus eating with sinners. That WAS his ministry, was it not? It was the Pharisees who where worried about his associations. And Jesus hanging around with the Pharisees was no different than hanging around the RC. The only reason he distanced himself from them was to avoid premature death.



I am amazed that you do not understand the difference between hanging around with sinners (which Jesus did, and we should follow in His example), and joining hands with them in ministry (which Jesus did NOT do, and scripture forbids). Call it ministry, call it Christian entertainment (which does have a ministry value... because it should be edifying and at times educational)... it's wrong. It is disobedience.

As for Jesus avoiding the Pharisees in order to prevent His premature death... that is not why He avoided them. THEY avoided HIM. They did not take His life, HE gave it.

Krispy

 2006/2/18 12:21
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3206
Texas

 Re:

I think we have hit the wall on this thread can someone please wave the yellow flag so we can pit and get a refreshment and a new mindset. :-P

Poor Gaithers they must feel like Jeff Gordon by now. :-P :-P


_________________
Mr. Bill

 2006/2/18 12:31Profile









 Re:

Dont EVEN get me going on Jeff Gordon! :-x

Krispy

 2006/2/19 12:11
phebebird
Member



Joined: 2004/11/23
Posts: 91
San Pedro, California

 Re:

"Joining hands with unrepentent homosexuals in ministry makes about as much sense as joining the Roman Catholic Church in ministry."

As I have noted many, many times before--this forum tends to be very anti-Catholic. I realize this is fodder for another thread, another day, but I am always loathe to let Catholic-bashing slip by. There is absoulutely NO EXCUSE for a parrallel between homosexuals and the Catholic Church. As I have noted time and time again (and I am sure someone will take exception to) Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ and we should not bash them like they are complete heathens. Of course, there are many unsaved people in the Catholic Church (there are many unsaved people in church in the Bible Belt every Sunday, too), but many wonderful Christian Catholics spring to mind: my next-door neighbor, my good childhood friends, some of my relatives, many, many people in the town where I live.

Catholic-bashing is so unneeded! Come on, guys!

Phebe


_________________
Phebe

 2006/2/19 20:49Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: dinner or pulpit

Quote:
...difference between

hanging around with sinners (which Jesus did, and we should follow in His example),

and joining hands with them in ministry (which Jesus did NOT do,..)


Compromise can happen at the dinner table just as easily as on the platform! And both are wrong. Many compromise their fidelity to God and "join hands" with others, ie let themselves be pulled away from their affection to God by their associates - whether "sinners" or professing Christians.

Whether Jesus was eating with sinnners or preaching in the synagogue, his loyalty was always to the Father, not man. And his influence as a Sheperd/leader/servant was just as important no matter what he did.

That is the calling for all Christians, not just "ministry" people. Most, however, fail because they love the praises of man, or because there is something to be gained by compromise.
In this case it may not be the "sinners" who are guilty of the greater sin before God.

Perhaps God has permitted so many failures in the "ministry" crew to remind the Church that we must not lean on man, put man on pedistals, idolize man, or in any way lean on man. For they can all fail miserably.

I think we must be cautious in judging one's loyalty to God according to their "ministry" associates. Jesus, in choosing Judas, was a good example.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2006/2/19 23:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Catholics are our brothers and sisters in Christ



I dont say this with any joy at all... unfortunately, if someone is putting their faith in the Catholic doctrines, they are not our brothers and sisters in Christ. To say that they are shows that you do not understand the Catholic faith.

Quote:
we should not bash them like they are complete heathens



No one this thread bashed any Catholics.

Quote:
There is absoulutely NO EXCUSE for a parrallel between homosexuals and the Catholic Church



Have you paid attention to the headlines over the past couple of years?

Quote:
there are many unsaved people in church in the Bible Belt every Sunday, too



This is true, however, at least they are in a place where they will hear the true gospel of salvation by grace, and not by works... lest any man should boast.

Quote:
but many wonderful Christian Catholics spring to mind



I know many wonderful Catholics as well. One of my wife's best friend is a Catholic... but being wonderful doesnt make them saved. As wonderful as Mother Theresa was, if she put her faith in the teachings of the Catholic Church (which she did) she died without salvation. And thats a miserable shame, and it burdens my heart personally.

Quote:
Catholic-bashing is so unneeded



Speaking the truth is not bashing. Please cease with the political correctness.

Fact, the Catholic Church is a false religion which is leading counting millions to their deaths without the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Fact, the Catholic Church has not changed it's doctrine, and has in fact reaffirmed it's doctrines in the century. Fact, if you study Revelation 17 there can be no mistaking which false religion John was writing about. Fact, individual Catholics should not be "bashed", but loved into a TRUE understanding of the Word Of God.

Read the Councel of Trent.

FACT: Calling them brothers and sisters in Christ when God's Word clearly shows us that they are deceived and following a man-made false Christ is not LOVE. If you love someone you will do everything you can to keep them out of hell. Turning a blind eye only condemns them to hell.

If you would like to discuss this further, start a thread about this very subject. I would love to talk further with you. I'll even help ya keep everyone level headed, because sometimes this topic can get a bit hot. But I give you my word I will do all I can to keep things civil.

What say you?

Krispy

 2006/2/21 12:30





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