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 Re:

Quote:
but do we deal with believers who lie as we should? i don't think so coz we all lie at some point and oft get caught but that seems to get glossed over if it's noticed at all. i agree we should deal with (in Christ's love) with those who relapse into whatever sin coz guess what, we all do at some point.



But again... your missing my point completely. A person lies, or even commits adultry... and confesses it and repents of it does not need church discipline. Church discipline is meant to produce repentance in believers who will not repent of whatever sin they have fallen into.

(Having said that, there are certain sins in which a church leader should be removed from leadership even if they are repentant. Consult Timothy and Titus.)

Say I treat someone wrong because I'm in a mood. I confess it and make it right to both God and the person I sinned against. There is no need for church discipline. However, if I dont repent but rather harden my heart and continually treat this person wrongly... then the church has a right to exercise discipline. Not to punish me or to exercise authority over me, but out of love for me to see me restored, and also to protect the people in the church, for a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Not sure why we're not connecting on this, bro... am I still not clear enough?

Krispy

 2006/2/13 11:38
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Maybe we should stop preaching against the sin of homosexuality and just preach against "sins" and make everyone feel good. Or maybe we should not preach against anything at all since we all have faults?? 8-)


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Brent

 2006/2/13 11:41Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Krispy

Quote:
What your missing is that word "unrepentant". There is a big difference between when a believer sins and repents for that sin because they recognize it as sin... and someone who commits sin but refuses to acknowledge that it is sin. Of course I sin, but I also am aware that when I sin I need to confess it to the Lord and make things right with Him... and whoever I may have sinned against.



i think we're getting somewhere, but what of the sins we commit knowing they are sin and yet we continue to commit them, is that not unrepentance? or is unrepentance limited to not acknowledging something as sin? :-?

Quote:
There are many homosexuals who call themselves "Christians" who believe God accepts them as homosexuals, that it is not a sin... and that God created them that way... and in so doing they justify their sin. And that is what I am addressing.



just as this is true, there are also many adulterers who make the same claim, so do many of our youth who fornicate also and this is what i pray we don't neglect coz this is a far more pervasive and destructive issue as more people are involved in such.

Quote:
And it is wrong for church leaders to join hands with this crowd under the guise of "ministry". Just the fact that we even have to have these discussions shows how close to the world's way of thinking the church has become.



i agree bro, just as it is also equally wrong for church leaders to join with adulterers and fornicators, and liars etc under the guise of ministry. but then again, there is a lot of adultery and fornication going on too...just as we have to wrestle with the fact that the church is very lax on adultery and fornication shows also how close we've come to the world in the justification or neglect of these things too :-(

i agree with you homosexuality is sin, let's just not forget about all the others while we're at it is what i'm saying.

Quote:
What ever happened to truth?



yeah, what ever did happen to truth? :-(


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/13 12:04Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Krispy
like i said though in the post about lies, "we oft get caught" but when we do get caught is there discipline dished out?

Quote:
Say I treat someone wrong because I'm in a mood. I confess it and make it right to both God and the person I sinned against. There is no need for church discipline. However, if I dont repent but rather harden my heart and continually treat this person wrongly... then the church has a right to exercise discipline. Not to punish me or to exercise authority over me, but out of love for me to see me restored, and also to protect the people in the church, for a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.



does this apply to lying also and other sins too? bro i'm getting a better picture of where you're coming from, i hope you're getting a better picture of where i'm coming from.are you?


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/13 12:12Profile









 Re: Preaching against sin, to the Church or to the World?

Why is it that we don't see anywhere in the New Testement that we are to preach against sin in the world?

In the Church yes, but not to the world.

In all instances they preached the Good News, and they preached Christ.

John preached Repentance to Israel!
Jesus preached the Good News to Israel!
Apostles and others preached Christ and the gospel of reconcilation to Israel and to the uttermost parts of the earth!

Now can someone give me a scripture in the New Testement where anyone preached against sin to the world?

Pauls letters were sent to Churches, not to the world.

Who does the convicting? You or Me? Nay but the holy Ghost does it. We preach Christ and the ressurection and as we preach the holy Spirit convicts hearts. "And God adding to the Church such as should be saved" God was adding not man. Judgements were for those who are inside the Church not to the world. The world is already condemned, "He came not to condemn the world, but that the world thru Him might be saved". That word still stands today and forever.

It's Jesus Jesus Jesus, He is the one that this world wants to know about, but all we talk about to the world is sin sin sin sin, your going to hell hell hell, God loves the sinner but He hates the sin. Foolish philosphies, God loves you PERIOD with or without sin. It's not your sin that is the issue, it's what you do with the Good News of Jesus Christ, are you going to receive the report or reject it? Being wooed and lured into a feeling sorry for your sins is pointless, you will do it again given the opprutunity. This flesh will make sure that you will sin again again again, most who read this know exactly what I am saying. I am not excusing sin, no siree. But Christ must be preached and His ressurection this is the whole of the gospel message that we have now excess to the Father because of the act of Jesus Christ.

If Christ were not risen then we are still dead in our sins and we are still seperated from the Father. But now that Christ has been risen we have been accepted in the beloved even all those who have received Him gave He power to become the sons of God. This is important, this is the Good News that Christ rose again, this is PARAMOUNT in our faith.

I have never known what I am typing to you at this very moment, as I am typing I feel the holy Ghost giving me these words. I have never known what I am saying right now about why it was important that Christ rise again, if Christ had not have risen we would still be in our sins and would have no way to come to Father we would have been seperated forever. This is the Good News the reconcilation of mankind back to God. It doesn't matter what sin you are involved in come to God anyway and let Him deal with it one on one.

We put such an emphasis on sin that we have condemned the sinner as sin. And I felt for a moment that God is greived by our actions that He wants us to LOVE instead, the kind of love that covers a multitude of sins. That simply means that we literally don't see the sin, it's covered. When Christ died, the lintels of Earths door had been stained with His blood. God's love covered it all, "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son". Sin is not the problem, rejection of the message of the good news of Jesus Christ is.

Can we believe that we are causing the problem of many not receiving the message? The North American love in the church is, "Bless us four and no more".

I remember reading about D.L.Moody, where he went into a large train depot as he was doing some traveling, and people in that station started to drop to their knees because they felt the awesome conviction of God in this man. Was it because He preached against sin, the story doesn't say that he said anything. I wonder what agape love can do?

I don't know a soul anywhere that has this kind of love streaming from thier lives that would cause sinners to take notice that God resides in that person.

I want to be that person. Brother Moody what is the secret, can you tell us?

Karl

PS: I mentioned the holy Ghost speaking to me, not to convince you that you need to listen to me. No, listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches, and allow these words to sink down into your ears. Luke 9:44

 2006/2/13 13:00









 Re:

Quote:
Maybe we should stop preaching against the sin of homosexuality and just preach against "sins" and make everyone feel good. Or maybe we should not preach against anything at all since we all have faults??



Well, by that logic we should throw out the Bible completely because it was written by men who had faults.

Krispy

 2006/2/13 13:09









 Re:

Ironman,

It so happens that this particular discussion is about homosexuality. You and I have conversed enough that I know you know that I speak out on a number of different things. And if this discussion were about fornication and adultry I would be saying the same things.

I think we all have sins that we are unrepentant of. But whether people like it or not, there are certain sins that God does deem worse than others. Particularly sexual sins. We are all a work in progress, and none of us will reach perfection here on earth, but when a group of people stand up and say "What we're doing is not sin", and scripture clearly says "Yes it is"... thats a problem. The believer who finds himself in an adulterous relationship may not "repent", but I doubt very seriously that they would say "This is not a sin!". (Maybe they would! Who knows, with the worldliness that is in the church today...)

I really dont think we're very far apart on this. This is why clarification is needed at times on this forum. Plus it helps that you and I have a history together that gives us a little more understanding about each other. I hope we serve as an example to others here that we can discuss... even debate... issues on here, and still be brothers in the Lord.

Krispy

 2006/2/13 13:12
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Quote:
Well, by that logic we should throw out the Bible completely because it was written by men who had faults.



Love it!! :-)


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Brent

 2006/2/13 13:26Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Krispy

Quote:
I think we all have sins that we are unrepentant of. But whether people like it or not, there are certain sins that God does deem worse than others. Particularly sexual sins. We are all a work in progress, and none of us will reach perfection here on earth, but when a group of people stand up and say "What we're doing is not sin", and scripture clearly says "Yes it is"... thats a problem. The believer who finds himself in an adulterous relationship may not "repent", but I doubt very seriously that they would say "This is not a sin!". (Maybe they would! Who knows, with the worldliness that is in the church today...)



well i would disagree on the last bit about the believer who finds himself in an adulterous relationship calling it sin. i'm sure there is a lot of ignorance, ie people being remarried outside of the bounds of scripture but there are those who know it's sin and yet remain in such relationships and even some who would contend they are not in sin.

bro Karl brought up this point which the Lord showed me through sis Diane and bro Ron Bailey on a similar thread and a couple of others too. what should be convicting sinners is not so much our words as it is our conduct. Karl brought up D.L. Moody who upon walking into a trainstation and not even saying anything, people were convicted. the Lord's Spirit had so worked on him that it emanated from him and he didn't have to say a thing but just be there. that's a lot easier than getting into debates and shouting matches...let us all let the Lord deal with us unto repentance that our lives may testify to the Lord's grace and mercy such that we need not even say anything.

Lord conform us to yourself by any means necessary.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/13 13:44Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Krispy
oh yeah we're not far apart, we're coming from different angles of the same issue. and yes the bottom line is that we are brothers in Christ and member of the same body and we need eachother.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/13 13:47Profile





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