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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : You will die for your country, but will you die for Christ?

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That a reasonably vague question, do you have a specific question that can be answered?.................Frank

 2006/3/19 8:48

Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA


Hi Frank!
You are right, the question is vague. It may be that Loveslave is trying to point out that only Jesus has the 'authority' to choose how, when, and where to die.

I see the point of this thread as being, "What are you willing to die for?" What is the highest priority in our value system? Is it patriotism, nationalism, liberty, or Jeus?

Laying down ones life, which I see as sacrificing personal rights and choices rather than physical death, is enjoined upon the 'talmidim' of Jesus for their 'friends.'

John 15:12-13
12 This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. ASV

The 'ultimate sacrifice,' as it is sometimes referred to, is sometimes easier than laying aside personal goal, agendas, pleasures, comforts, dreams, and preferrences for the sake of another individual. After all physical death is a one time thing and ushers us into the glory of God. As some would say "Go ahead, make my day!" But being a living sacrifice is a slow death, a death of the flesh, and it is not pleasant for anyone.

I don't know if this is what Loveslave was thinking but it is what came into my spirit.

Lots of love,

Jeff Smith

 2006/3/19 9:12Profile

Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499

 Take No Thought of Your Life...

Hi appolous...

I was just replying to an old reply. I do like the subject and believe that in our lifetime we could possibly face the possibility that "if it were possible, even the elect will be deceived." I am obviously not a pre-tribber and people who are I just think it goes along with easy-believism, prosperity preaching and carnal Christianity."..........Frank

In fact, there are many believers out there that are pre-trib, yet do not embrace any form of easy-believism, prosperity preaching, or carnal Christianity. Currently, I am inclined to find much credibility to the notion of a "Pre-Trib Rapture."

To me, a "Pre-Trib Rapture" does not mean that I will escape all forms of suffering or persecution here on Earth. People in many nations are suffering immensely for their faith. A "Pre-Trib" Rapture seems to indicate that the Church will escape the "wrath of God" (or a unified trial or temptation) that will collectively fall upon all the world.

I also find it difficult to interpret the Scriptures with any ultimate finality concerning this issue. There are many who strongly make statements about the certainty of such positions (pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, etc...). While I am currently inclined to believe in a pre-trib Rapture, it doesn't mean that I am not prepared or willing to endure the time of Tribulation.

Thus, the more important question to me is as follows:
[b]Is there anything that would cause you to neglect your relationship with the Lord?[/b]

If the most important thing in your life is a real relationship with Christ -- then you would endure all things (both tribulation and success) without it affecting your relationship. Indeed, there are individuals that neglect Christ due to an unwillingness to seek Him during times of physical or financial well-being. But remember, "wealth" is a interpretive term. For instance, a middle-class individual in some Western Nations would be considered wealthy in many others. The fact that you own a house, a car, or even a computer might be a sign of "wealth" in most third-world nations.

There is alot to be learned in both Matthew 6:25-34 -- as well as Philippians 4:11-13.
Matthew 6:25-34
"Therefore I say unto you, [b]Take no thought for your life[/b], what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment? Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they? Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Philippians 4:11-13
"Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. [b]I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound[/b]: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

I have seen individuals almost become prideful because of "prosperity," but also some because of their supposed "poverty." I believe that in all things, as Paul stated, we should be content. Paul knew how to be "abased" (to be in need) and how to "abound" (to have plenty).

This same message can carry into our beliefs about end-time prophecy. Would you lose your relationship with Christ because of the intense suffering that will forced upon believers by this world? Would you be so easily deceived as to believe false signs and lying wonders?

I like what Keith Green once said, "[i]Pray for pre-trib, but prepare for post-trib[/i]." How do you do this? Believers must do their best to be content with their relationship with Christ through all circumstances (Philippians 4:11) -- as well as willing to test everything (I Thessalonians 5:21). To me, it is much more important to be [i]willingly ready[/i] at all times -- then to argue about interpretations of prophecy Scripture.




 2006/3/19 12:07Profile


Hi Jeff
I think you have captured the spirit of the article. Peter proved this point when we see he was willing to physically die in the garden, when he lopped of the servants ear, but he was not willing to surrender and suffer humiliation and this is when he denied Jesus. So, we are either denying the flesh or denying Jesus, no middle ground seems to exist.............Frank

 2006/3/19 12:09


This has turned into a really great topic and thread and bringing these things to our minds to contemplate is a great favor done.
Jeff and Chris have come to where many have in Church History, with their determination, despite "which-trib" was believed.
If Frank and I are not pre-trib, yet we all are setting our face as a flint to get through as the first Church did and so on, until today in some countries now going through loving not their life's unto death, that has been the fruit of these discussions. More "fortifiers".

Isa 50:7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

 2006/3/19 14:40

Joined: 2006/3/12
Posts: 89
Georgia, USA

 Re: Take No Thought of Your Life...

Hey Chris I like your perspective. Having been taught pre-trib when I was young and mostly (not all) of what I saw was an unwillingness to suffer for Christ. Later as I encountered post-tribbers I saw some who thought that they would wait for the tribulation to "iron out the wrinkles." I also have been preparing (spiritually not as much materially) to go through all kinds of suffering but will not complain if Jesus takes me out early.

Although the NLT may not be the most accurate translation it has caused me to stop and rethink my postion and belief on my passages. I had to pause and think when I heard this;

1 Peter 4:1-2
So then, since Christ suffered physical pain, you must arm yourselves with the same attitude he had, and be ready to suffer, too. For if you are willing to suffer for Christ, you have decided to stop sinning. 2 And you won't spend the rest of your life chasing after evil desires, but you will be anxious to do the will of God. NLT

I decided if there is any chance whatsoever that I must suffer for Christ then I must allow Him to prepare me for it and to rid my flesh of the desires for sin. Pre or Post I want to be ready for anything.

Loving His appearing,

Jeff Smith

 2006/3/19 15:35Profile

Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698


1 Peter 4:1-2
So then, since Christ suffered physical pain, you must arm yourselves with the same attitude he had, and be ready to suffer, too. For if you are willing to suffer for Christ, you have decided to stop sinning. 2 And you won't spend the rest of your life chasing after evil desires, but you will be anxious to do the will of God. NLT

If we are willing to suffer.

1 Peter 4:1-2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. KJV

He that hath suffered, if not we are not His.

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

The sufferings of this life are pale to the Glory when we see Him.

The new living testament takes away from the suffering we were baptized into. First His death, Mark 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

Then not if we are willing but it is so, if we are His we will suffer. Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

If we don't suffer we are none of His. Are you suffering? The main reason we suffer is because we are not with Him as we will be on resurrection morning. For now we fast and our fast is being incomplete, not being as Him. We are in Him in Spirit and becoming in Him in soul (mind) and will be with Him in body, complete.

Mat 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Now we fast looking for the Bridegroom as 5 of 10 did not trim their candles and missed Him, the others kept their candles lit. In Light of This where is Post trib.

2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];

Delivered, in spirit; doth deliver, in soul (mind) renewing of the mind; will yet deliver, when we get our new body like His Glorious Body on resurrection morning. Past, Present, future.

In Christ: Phillip


 2006/3/19 17:31Profile

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