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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Not in Abraham's faith but in the faith of Jesus Christ who is our righteousness.



We have the same faith as Abraham did. The same faith that justified Abraham is the same faith that justifies us. The same righteousness reckoned to Abraham is the same righteousness reckoned to us.

Romans 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,


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Jimmy H

 2006/2/13 16:21Profile
jimbob
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Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
"justify" means that judge declares an individual to be 'just' of the charges which have been laid against him. Justification by faith means that God 'justifies the ungodly' (not the regenerate, nor the sanctified) who place their faith in God. To say that God requires regeneration before He justifies is to put the cart before the horse.



Believe it or not I understand the principle behind justification. So are you saying that an unregenerate person exercises FAITH and then he is justified? Thats what it sounds like. That would be quite an accomplishment for a dead man to exercise faith.

But to get back to your original criticism which was a charge of universalism, do you believe Christ reconciled the world to God on the cross? Calvanists say no, He merely was a propitiation for the elect. I say He justified mankind (all of us) by His death on the cross, apart from any regeneration.

I. Holy Scripture sums up all its teachings regarding the love of God to the world of sinners, regarding the salvation wrought by Christ, and regarding faith in Christ as the only way to obtain salvation, in the article of justification. Scripture teaches that God has already declared the whole world to be righteous in Christ, Rom. 5:19; 2 Cor. 5:18-21; Rom. 4:25; that therefore not for the sake of their good works, but without the works of the Law, by grace, for Christ's sake, He justifies, that is, accounts as righteous, all those who believe, accept, and rely on, the fact that for Christ's sake their sins are forgiven. Therefore the Holy Spirit testifies through St. Paul: "There is no difference; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus," Rom. 3:23, 24. And again: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law," Rom. 3:28.

There is nothing in that statement that says God requires regeneration prior to justification, it merely states that justification is by faith, the same thing you said. I really don't understand why or where your coming from on this.

 2006/2/14 5:19Profile









 Re:

We've sort of rabbit trailed from my inquiry here.

What I'd really really appreciate is, if someone would exegete or explain these verses ...

[b][u]But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Therefore "leaving" the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection[/u]; [i]not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.[/i]
[u]And this will we do, if God permit.[/u] [/b]


I find these verses fascinating.


We've sorta gone off onto the very things these verses are talking about us moving on from.

I don't know if anyone is interested in explaining these verses quoted above here, but I had hoped we could look at them somehow.

Thanks guys.

 2006/2/15 16:55
jimbob
Member



Joined: 2005/9/25
Posts: 131


 Re:

Me Again,

The writer of Hebrews also went off on his rabbit trails when he wrote the verses you quote. The context of the passage is comparing (through typology) Christ to Melchizedek the high priest who was not of the line of Levi, and on into the new covenant of faith.

If you follow the whole train of thought beginning at Chpt 5:1 right through to the end of Hebrews the writer is making the point that salvation is not gained through the Levitical priesthood, and that our high priest was also the sacrifice for our sins, and that the law of Moses was a mere shadow of heavenly things, ect.

This was a heavy meal of "meat" for the Jewish Christians to digest.

 2006/2/16 5:29Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 exegete or explain these verses

MeAgain want someone to exegete or explain these verses... Hebrews 5:14
"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Hebrews 6:1,3 "Therefore "leaving" the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit."

Notice what he said in vv.5:11 & 12
"...seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

He was basicaly scolding them for not matureing in there faith. It's like a christian who has been saved for 10 years but only have the Knowlage, wisdom, and understanding of someone who has been just saved or maybe for a year at the most; see vv.5:12.

They were also close to going back to Judaism from persecution
Hebrews 10:32 But continually recall to mind the days now past, when on being first enlightened you went through a great conflict and many sufferings.
:33 This was partly through allowing yourselves to be made a public spectacle amid reproaches and persecutions, and partly through coming forward to share the sufferings of those who were thus treated.
:34 For you not only showed sympathy with those who were imprisoned, but you even submitted with joy when your property was taken from you, being well aware that you have in your own selves a more valuable possession and one which will remain.
[b]:35 Therefore do not cast from you your confident hope, for it will receive a vast reward.
:36 For you stand in need of patient endurance, so that, as the result of having done the will of God, you may receive the promised blessing. [/b]

and they were expecting the Lord to come soon in there life time

:37 For yet a very little while he that comes will come, and will not delay.

The writer is telling them to go forward to maturity and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. [b]They shouldn't be laying again the foundations but building on them.[/b]

They must have been close to leaveing the faith since the wirter warns them in Chapt.6 verses 4-9

see also:
Chapt. 10 :38 But the just shall live by faith; and, if he draw back, my soul does not take pleasure in him.
:39 But we are not drawers back to perdition, but of faith to saving the soul.

I hope this is good enough for you, if not keep asking questions.

 2006/2/17 4:42Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Believe it or not I understand the principle behind justification. So are you saying that an unregenerate person exercises FAITH and then he is justified? Thats what it sounds like. That would be quite an accomplishment for a dead man to exercise faith.

Ah, I think I see our difficulty. Those of a Reformed tradition put regeneration as the start of everything, faith, repentence etc. Others see 'regeneration' as the subsequence (not the consequence!) of faith.

Although your comments re Calvinists make me think this is not your persuasion. We are moving into the territory that we have often discussed here as to whether or not the OT saints experienced 'regeneration'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/17 5:33Profile









 Re: exegete or explain these verses

Quote:

Logic wrote:
MeAgain wants someone to exegete or explain these verses... Hebrews 5:14
[b]"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."

Hebrews 6:1,3 "Therefore "leaving" the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit."

Notice what he said in vv.5:11 & 12
"...seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

He was basically scolding them for not maturing in there faith. It's like a Christian who has been saved for 10 years but only have the Knowledge, wisdom, and understanding of someone who has been just saved or maybe for a year at the most; see vv.5:12.


The writer is telling them to go forward to maturity and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. They shouldn't be laying again the foundations but building on them.[/b]




Somebody, give that man a cigar :-D !

Amen and pass the ammo or at least some builder's nails.

God Bless ya brother.


And Thanks !
Annie :-)

 2006/2/17 20:55
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The writer is telling them to go forward to maturity and leave behind us the first lessons of the Christian message. They shouldn't be laying again the foundations but building on them.


Those to whom Hebrews was written were not only being encouraged to 'go forward', they were being solemnly warned of the dangers of 'going back'. I don't think Hebrews has 'stagnation' as its [i]main[/i] thrust, but the danger of 'retreat'.

This is what I was trying to explain in my post of 2006/2/6 16:38

The only antidote to 'withdrawing' is to encourage them to 'draw near'. or in a differnent metaphor the only antidote to regression is progression. Not that 'stagnation' is ever an option; status quo is never a viable state for the Christian. :-)

The 'not going on' was the root of the Corinthian problem. The 'going back' was the Galatians and Hebrews problem.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/2/18 5:01Profile









 Re:Just a few e-sword Excerpts.

Good Ron :-D THANKS too !

[b]Heb. 5:12 ... Milk ...

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown ....[/b]
milk . . . not . . . strong meat--"Milk" refers to such fundamental first principles as he enumerates in Heb_6:1-2. The solid meat, or food, is not absolutely necessary for preserving life, but is so for acquiring greater strength. Especially in the case of the Hebrews, who were much given to allegorical interpretations of their law, which they so much venerated, the application of the Old Testament types, to Christ and His High Priesthood, was calculated much to strengthen them in the Christian faith [LIMBORCH].

[b]Adam Clarke .....[/b]
Such as have need of milk - Milk is a metaphor by which many authors, both sacred and profane, express the first principles of religion and science; and they apply sucking to learning; and every student in his novitiate, or commencement of his studies, was likened to an infant that derives all its nourishment from the breast of its mother, not being able to digest any other kind of food. On the contrary, those who had well learned all the first principles of religion and science, and knew how to apply them, were considered as adults who were capable of receiving στερεα τροφη, solid food; i.e. the more difficult and sublime doctrines. The rabbins abound with this figure; it occurs frequently in Philo, and in the Greek ethic writers also. In the famous Arabic poem called al Bordah, written by Abi Abdallah Mohammed ben Said ben Hamad Albusiree, in praise of Mohammed and his religion, every couplet of which ends with the letter mim, the first letter in Mohammed’s name, we meet with a couplet that contains a similar sentiment to that of the apostle: -
“The soul is like to a young infant, which, if permitted, will grow up to manhood in the love of sucking; but if thou take it from the breast it will feel itself weaned.”
Dr. Owen observes that there are two Sorts of hearers of the Gospel, which are here expressed by an elegant metaphor or similitude; this consists,
1. In the conformity that is between bodily food and the Gospel as preached.
2. In the variety of natural food as suited to the various states of them that feed on it, answered by the truths of the Gospel, which are of various kinds; and, in exemplification of this metaphor, natural food is reduced to two kinds:
1. milk;
2. strong or solid meat; and those who feed on these are reduced to two sorts:
1. children;
2. men of ripe age. Both of which are applied to hearers of the Gospel.
1. Some there are who are νηπιοι, babes or infants, and some are τελειοι, perfect or full grown.
2. These babes are described by a double properly:
1. They are dull of hearing;
2. They are unskilful in the word of righteousness.
In opposition to this, those who are spiritually adult are,
1. They who are capable of instruction.
2. Such as have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
3. The different means to be applied to these different sorts for their good, according to their respective conditions, are expressed in the terms of the metaphor: to the first, γαλα, milk; to the others, στεοεα τροφη, strong meat. All these are compromised in the following scheme: -
The hearers of the Gospel Are, I. Νηπιοι· Babes or Infants or II. Τελειοι· Perfect or Adult

[b]1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

The Meat ... Wesley ...
Heb 5:13[/b] - Every one that useth milk - That neither desires, nor can digest, anything else: otherwise strong men use milk; but not milk chiefly, and much less that only. Is unexperienced in the word of righteousness - The sublimer truths of the gospel. Such are all who desire and can digest nothing but the doctrine of justification and imputed righteousness.

[b]Heb 5:14 - Vincent's Word Studies ....
Strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age[/b] ( τελειων δε εστιν η στερεα τροφη)
This rendering is clumsy. Rend. solid food is for full-grown men. For τελειων full-grown, see on 1Co_2:6. Often by Paul, as here, in contrast with νηπιοι immature Christians. See 1Co_2:6; 1Co_3:1; 1Co_13:11; Eph_4:4. Paul has the verb νηπιαζειν to be a child in 1Co_14:20.
By reason of use (δια την εξιν)
For use rend. habitude. N.T.o. It is the condition produced by past exercise. Not the process as A.V., but the result.
Their senses (τα αισθητηρια)
N.T.o. Organs of perception; perceptive faculties of the mind. In lxx see Jer_4:19; 4 Macc. 2:22.
Exercised (γεγυμνασμενα)
See on 2Pe_2:14, and see on 1Ti_4:7.
Good and evil
Not moral good and evil, but wholesome and corrupt doctrine. The implication is that the readers' condition is such as to prevent them from making this distinction.


[b]Jamieson, Fausset and Brown .... Where RonB wins his cigar again ....

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection ...
[/b] - WARNING AGAINST RETROGRADING, WHICH SOON LEADS TO APOSTASY; ENCOURAGEMENT TO STEADFASTNESS FROM GOD'S FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD AND OATH. (Heb_6:1-14)

Therefore--Wherefore: seeing that ye ought not now to be still "babes" (Heb_5:11-14).

leaving--getting further forward than the elementary "principles." "As in building a house one must never leave the foundation: yet to be always laboring in 'laying the foundation' would be ridiculous".

the principles of the doctrine--Greek, "the word of the beginning," that is, the discussion of the "first principles of Christianity (Heb_5:12).

let us go on--Greek, "let us be borne forward," or "bear ourselves forward"; implying active exertion: press on. Paul, in teaching, here classifies himself with the Hebrew readers, or (as they ought to be) learners, and says, Let us together press forward.

perfection--the matured knowledge of those who are "of full age" (Heb_5:14) in Christian attainments.


[b]Barnes Notes ....
Let us go on[/b] - Let us advance to a higher state of knowledge and holiness. The reference is alike to his discussion of the subject, and to their advancement in piety and in knowledge. He would not linger around these elements in the discussion, nor would he have them linger at the threshold of the Christian doctrines.
Unto perfection - compare the notes on Heb_2:10. The word here is used, evidently, to denote an advanced state of Christian knowledge and piety; or the more elevated Christian doctrines, and the holier living to which it was their duty to attain. It does not refer solely to the intention of the apostle to discuss the more elevated doctrines of Christianity, but to” such an advance as would secure them from the danger of apostasy.” If it should be said, however, that the word “perfection” is to be understood in the most absolute and unqualified sense, as denoting entire freedom from sin, it may be remarked:
(1) that this does not prove that they ever attained to it, nor should this be adduced as a text to show that such an attainment is ever made. To exhort a man to do a thing - however reasonable - is no proof in itself that it is ever done.
(2) it is proper to exhort Christians to aim at entire perfection. Even if none have ever reached that point on earth, that fact does not make it any the less desirable or proper to aim at it.
(3) there is much in making an honest attempt to be perfectly holy, even though we should not attain to it in this life. No man accomplishes much who does not aim high.
Amen !

[b]Vincent's Word Studies ....
Let us go on unto perfection[/b]
Lit. let us be born on to completeness. The participial clause, leaving, etc., is related to the verbal clause as expressing a necessary accompaniment or consequence of the latter. Let us be born on to completeness, and, because of this, leave, etc. This sense is not given by the Rev. Τελειότης only here and Col_3:14. Rend. completeness. The completeness is viewed as pertaining to both the writer and the readers. He proposes to fully develop his theme: they are exhorted to strive for that full Christian manhood which will fit them to receive the fully-developed discussion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks youse guys. This was good.
There's like 12 or so N.T. commentaries etc. in the e-sword, so I've been having fun with these, but only posted these few.

Y'all have helped to make this some good stuff (meat).

"So let us go on to perfection ..."


Neat ! Thanks for the Good Fellowship.

8-) :-D :-)

 2006/2/18 7:16





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