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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is sin?

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PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
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 What is sin?

I hope no one minds me starting a new thread...

It seems that the "[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=9345&forum=35]Must we sin?[/url]" thread turned into this.

I think that for us to say that we can or can't be without sin we have to define sin. I think that is why some say you can/can't sin is because they both have a different idea of sin.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/1 10:01Profile
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 Re: What is sin?

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/1 10:05Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

I think this is one of the items which resurfaces from time to time. The division of opinion is often on the question of [u]S[/u]in or [u]s[/u]ins. Individual transgressions of 'law' may be defined as [u]s[/u]ins but what is this [u]S[/u]in that Paul refers to in Rom 5:12 which entered the world at the time of Adam's first [u]s[/u]in?

My own personal definition (imperfect and partial, I know) is that
"Faith is right response to revelation and [u]s[/u]in is wrong response to revelation." “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Rom. 10:17, KJVS)

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17, KJVS)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/1 12:21Profile
PreachParsly
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 Re:

Hmmm.. I've never made a distinction of 'sins' and 'sin.' Can you give some more thought on this? This is a new idea to me.

Thanks.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/2 11:04Profile
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 Re:

preachparsley's

Quote:
Hmmm.. I've never made a distinction of 'sins' and 'sin.' Can you give some more thought on this? This is a new idea to me.

This is a fairly common distinction that evangelicals have made for a hundred years or so... but in essence it is a way of explaining what Paul is referring to in Romans 5. “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
(Rom. 5:12, KJVS) You see we are back to this topic again. ;-) but I am glad to have another opportunity of working through it. From Rom 5:12 and for most of the rest of the next couple of chapters Paul refers to sin in a very different way to anything found elsewhere in the Bible; he personifies it. Before this point in Romans he generally has in mind 'sin' as the transgression of law. He uses the language of 'measurement', reckoned etc but when he arrives at Rom 5:12 Sin has become an entity and behaves with 'personality' characteristics. eg

Sin enters the world...Rom 5:12 (through the open door of Adam's transgression.
It reigns... Rom 5:21
It has 'bondslaves's - us! Rom 6:6 but this has now changed Rom 6:17, 6:20,22
It must not be allowed to 'reign' in the Christian Rom 6:12
We must not surrender our 'weapons' to it Rom 6:13
It must no longer be 'lord' (have dominion) Rom 6:14
It must no longer be obeyed Rom 6:16
Christians have been released from it and have become slaves to righteousness Rom 6:18
It pays wages! Rom 6:23

I won't go on into the next chapters but the point is that rather than sin being a 'mark' on a card against us, it appears here as a tyrant on a throne, and its co-regent is death.

Have you ever read anything of Arthur Custance? I have often had his work recommended to me but have never really read it. Today, googling, I came across what looks like a pretty thorough examination of the topic [url=http://custance.org/old/man/7ch1.html]The difference between "Sin" and "sins".[/url]

It's quite a long read but if the concept is new to you it will make good 'homework reading' for you.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/2 12:24Profile
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 Re:

This is the greatest definition in the Bible for sin. “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17, KJVS)

These companion verses show what, "to him it is sin" means. John 16:7-9 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on Me;

This is sin that leads to death, "Of sin, because they believe not on Me;"

In Christ the Sin of the world has been overcome and we become like Him in this world. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

The sins of the Flesh are not the Sin of the World. Sins of the Flesh were taken care of at the Cross and repentance in our salvation and confession in our sins takes care of them.

The Sin of the world is overcome by believing in Christ Jesus unto salvation, all else comes after new birth, because we then have the Faith of Jesus Christ in us that has overcome the world and we then can be forgiven of our sins, for, "God is Faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Sin and sins, forgiveness of Sin unto salvation by believing In Christ Jesus. Sins overcome by the faith of the Son of God that is in us unto good works and fruit that overcomes the world. Jhn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

"In Me", this is our life, our overcoming, and our Glory. Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

For it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/2/2 14:42Profile
PreachParsly
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 Re:

It was somewhat of a long read, but there were many tables that made it look longer than what it really was. I'm not really sure why he threw the Calvinist doctrine of "Limited Atonement" in there at the end but that is beside the matter.

So according to this view, would it be safe to say that we are born in 'sin' but we then choose to commit 'sins' and that is our personal rebellion against God?

I have heard some about "propensity" but this was interesting and at first thought seems to be a Biblical truth. As he noted there are occasions that 'sin' is referring to 'an offense' instead of 'disease,' so that surely makes me want to study this more. Do you know of some others that hold this view that would have writings I could look at?

Here is a quote for those who may not want to read the whole thing:


Quote:
Just to make sure that my meaning is understood, since we are really setting the stage for all that follows, I should like to reiterate what is said above in slightly different terms. Not only is physical death now the appointed experience of all men in Adam (I Cor. 15:22), but all men are active sinners. Romans 3:23 has it, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." But in writing to the Roman Christians, Paul makes it very clear that though all men inherit Adam's disease, Adam's sin, they do not imitate his particular sins. They have inherited his final mortal state but their transgressions are not a "similitude" of his (Rom. 5:14). Nor is Adam's particular form of transgression imputed to his descendants, though his acquired disease is inherited by them to become a root which bears fruit in their lives. As a result they stand equally under the sentence of spiritual death by their own disobedience to the law of God, as they do under the sentence of physical death. The penalty of spiritual death is shared because each man has sinned personally not merely because Adam sinned. Each individual comes under sentence of spiritual death for his own sins.




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Josh Parsley

 2006/2/2 14:54Profile
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 Re:

Christinyou's

Quote:
This is the greatest definition in the Bible for sin. “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17, KJVS)

Weymouth's paraphrase has “If, however, a man knows what it is right to do and yet does not do it, he commits a sin.”
(James 4:17, WEYMTH) Weymouth is picking up the fact that we are not talking about 'sin' generically but individually. There is no definite article attached to 'sin' here which means we could equally translate this "he commits [u]a[/u] sin"; which is why Weymouth has paraphrased it as he has.

Biblically 'sins' are dealt with by forgiveness and the one who committed the 'sin' is justified. SIN as the inward dynamic which entered the human race at the time of Adam's [u]s[/u]in has to be dealt with by regeneration.

The Custance article hyperlinked alleges that all uses of 'sin' in the singular in the NT are really referring to 'Sin'. I think he may be right; I haven't checked [i]all[/i] the references.

Quote:
In Christ the Sin of the world has been overcome and we become like Him in this world. 1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.

The sins of the Flesh are not the Sin of the World. Sins of the Flesh were taken care of at the Cross and repentance in our salvation and confession in our sins takes care of them.

The Sin of the world is overcome by believing in Christ Jesus unto salvation, all else comes after new birth, because we then have the Faith of Jesus Christ in us that has overcome the world and we then can be forgiven of our sins, for, "God is Faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

I am struggling with this section. I think you are distinguishing between 'Sin' and 'sins'. I am not sure what you think the 'sin of the world' is. As far as I am aware the scripture does not speak of our 'overcoming the Sin of the world'. On the contrary, it tells us that Christ 'carried away the Sin of the world'. This is not 'overcoming' but substitutionary atonement' as typified in the sin-bearing goat which carried the sins of the people away into the wilderness. I would like to see a simple statement like "the sin of the world is....". Can you crystalize what you are saying into such a sentence?


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/2 15:09Profile
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 Re: Arthur Custance

Preachparsley's

Quote:
So according to this view, would it be safe to say that we are born in 'sin' but we then choose to commit 'sins' and that is our personal rebellion against God?

I have heard some about "propensity" but this was interesting and at first thought seems to be a Biblical truth. As he noted there are occasions that 'sin' is referring to 'an offense' instead of 'disease,' so that surely makes me want to study this more. Do you know of some others that hold this view that would have writings I could look at?

As I said earlier I had not read Custance on this until today. The person who put me onto him is someone with whom I have had many hours of discussion and I guessed he thought Custance and myself were seeing things in the same light. So I find this particular document very encouraging. I spend quite a bit of my time 'out on a limb' and from time to time it is encouraging to find other folk out there too. :-)

I haven't gone through the whole of his piece but I find a great degree of agreement in the way he is expressing things. I don't know of any one who would express it quite like this, except me! :-? I will do some googling and see what I can find.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/2 15:17Profile
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 Re:

The Custance article seems to advocate that the spirit of man is alive and just in a process of being corrupted and the death the Lord talked to Adam about was a literal dieing of the human body. I'll need to re-read it again but I'm not at all sure that I totally agree with that position. I read through it rather fast and will for the next 2 weeks be out of town so I'll have more quality quiet time to read this again. It is an interesting topic though and one in which I'll be very much interested in reading through the thread when I return.


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D.Miller

 2006/2/2 17:28Profile





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