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Discussion Forum : General Topics : "End of the Spear" Steve Saint Speaks

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 Re: Ishmael

Quote:
Krispy, did God not miraculously spare Ishmael's life in the desert when he was dying of thirst?
Diane



God did not intend for Abraham to father Ishmael. That is my point. Had Abraham trusted God instead of sinning against God Ishmael would never had been born. That is my point. God has a plan, but He allows us free-will to either carry out his plans in faith... or not trust Him and mess it up.

I only use Abraham as an example of God not interveneing to impose His plans on us. Can God turn our mistakes around? Of course... but His perfect plan can still be pre-empted by our disobedience.

And I believe it applies to this movie as IRONMAN addressed it.

That is my point.

Krispy

 2006/2/1 14:14









 Re: Neo-calvanism etc

Quote:
i think this issue should be discussed elsewhere so that the theme of this thread isn't lost. we can talk privately if you wish but i'll start another thread on this perhaps.



No, it wasnt my intention to veer off the road. My original post was in keeping, the misunderstandings kinda veered it off.

If we're all clear on my point (agree or disagree) we can get back to topic, perhaps?

Krispy

 2006/2/1 14:17
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: It's not off topic

Quote:
Had Abraham trusted God instead of sinning against God Ishmael would never had been born. That is my point.



But God DID intervene by sparing Ishmael's life. And that says something about God's nature. And that DOES speak to the very issue under discussion, does it not?
God has always been a master at turning things upsidedown - pouring out mercy exactly where it shouldn't go.

We're in the mess we are in because of unbelief, not because of those "illegitamate" sinners across the ocean. God promises to protect those who trust in him, and no foe need by feared.
Diane


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Diane

 2006/2/1 14:20Profile









 Re:

Quote:
God has always been a master at turning things upsidedown - pouring out mercy exactly where it shouldn't go.



Thats exactly what I said, Diane, but thanx for reaffirming it. :-)

Quote:
We're in the mess we are in because of unbelief, not because of those "illegitamate" sinners across the ocean. God promises to protect those who trust in him, and no foe need by feared.



Yea, but again, I was not addressing America. I was addressing the "Arabs against the World" mentality that they have over there. The fighting between the Jew and the Arab. I've been there, I've seen it. I've been shot at over there. It's a very real hatred that started with Abraham's disobedience.

To bring it back on topic... my point with all of this is... the statement that if God had a better plan He would have implemented it is not accurate. And I believe God had a better plan the The End Of The Spear.

Krispy

 2006/2/1 14:38
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Krispy
ok, i got the other thread going, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac etc. in the lounge.

as it pertains to the movie let everyone seek the Lord's counsel on what to do be it see it, pray for those in it, examine ourselves or whatever the Lord would have us do.

Quote:
To bring it back on topic... my point with all of this is... the statement that if God had a better plan He would have implemented it is not accurate. And I believe God had a better plan the The End Of The Spear.



does anything happen outside the will of God? is the Lord not sovereign over all that whatever He intends can be usurped by our own will? are we not subject to His sovereign will even in our own free will?

hey maybe i didn't need to start a whole new thread or did i? :-? this issue of the Lord's sovereingty is kinda what i want to get into on the other thread.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/2/1 15:13Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Excellent articles

All that I can say in response to the article is "Wow!I had no idea!"

There is a lot to read, but it is worth it. I was very humbled when I read Steve Saint's own testimony - his dream, and how God convicted his heart of the need to shed his fear of man, and accept his sovereignty. There can be no disputing that God clearly directed this movie (behind the "scenes")

As I read I was convicted of my own sins. You see, in the previous thread on this topic I had judged the ETE fasely - assuming that they used the controversy to make money. That was not the case at all.

The overall message to me: Do not make judgments or assumptions on something you know nothing about.

Thank you Mike for posting this.

Diane


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Diane

 2006/2/1 15:51Profile









 Re:

I read the article too...

What are we to think of Steve Saint's dream? It is simple. God would [b]never[/b] act contrary to His own Scriptures. That would be the penultimate confusion. If God does not act strictly in accordance with His own revelation, it would be impossible to know anything for certain. This is not to "put God in a box." It is rather to honor God by taking Him at His Word.

What does the Scripture say on this issue? It [b]forbids[/b] Christians to yoke together with unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14) and it requires Christians to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Eph. 5:11), to turn away from those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof (2 Tim. 3:5), and not to keep company with "any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner" (1 Cor. 5:11).

That is clear enough. God does love men and has provided salvation in such a manner that "whosoever will" can repent and trust Jesus Christ and be saved. But God's love for sinners and His desire that all be saved is an entirely different issue than the one at hand, which is whether or not Christians should yoke together with a homosexual activist who has blasphemed the name of Jesus Christ in movies and plays (Corpis Christi) and whether they should promote him in the role of a martyred missionary that did not believe in the homosexual agenda.

In further justification of his support for the homosexual activist in the role of his father, Steve Saint said, "God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform." This is Hollywood's favorite Bible verse and has been quoted in countless movies, but of course it is [b]nowhere in the Bible![/b]

Thus, Steve Saint is following a dream and an extra-scriptural religious saying in plain contradiction to the Bible.

I respect Steve Saint, however he is just as capable of being completely wrong as any of the rest of us. And in this instance... I believe he is.

Krispy

 2006/2/1 16:09









 Re: EotS - Steve Saint thread

Quote:
In further justification of his support for the homosexual activist in the role of his father, Steve Saint said, "God works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform." This is Hollywood's favorite Bible verse and has been quoted in countless movies, but of course it is nowhere in the Bible!

Thus, Steve Saint is following a dream and an extra-scriptural religious saying in plain contradiction to the Bible.

Krispy,

I don't know if you did a search for the exact words you quote from Steve Saint, but there most definitely are many references to [u]wonders[/u], and the [i]meaning[/i] (of God's 'mysterious ways') is [u]very clearly[/u] sketched there using slightly different words. For instance, Job said (9:10)

Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.

and

Psalms 106:7
Our fathers [u]understood not[/u] thy wonders in Egypt; they remembered not the multitude of thy mercies; but provoked [him] at the sea, [even] at the Red sea.

I've stayed with the KJV, because the sentence you quote is from a hymn, written in the era when it was the version mainly available, and that's why such a phrase has passed into common English usage.


[b]God moves in a mysterious way
His wonders to perform[/b];
He plants His footsteps in the sea
And rides upon the storm.

Deep in unfathomable mines
Of never failing skill
He treasures up His bright designs
And works His sovereign will.

Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take;
The clouds ye so much dread
Are big with mercy and shall break
In blessings on your head.

Judge not the Lord by feeble sense,
But trust Him for His grace;
Behind a frowning providence
He hides a smiling face.

His purposes will ripen fast,
Unfolding every hour;
The bud may have a bitter taste,
But sweet will be the flower.

Blind unbelief is sure to err
And scan His work in vain;
God is His own interpreter,
And He will make it plain.


[i]William Cowper 1731 - 1800[/i]

Interesting that this hymn specifically mentions God's sovreign will. 'He plants his footstep in the sea and rides upon the storm' are thoughts also in Psalms.

Therefore, I think you're taking a huge amount upon yourself, to suggest that Steve Saint was not hearing from God when he made the decisions he did concerning the making of a film about his father.

Another thing to remember is how very young the children were when their fathers died, and the effect of the bereavement on them, as well as any natural desire to bring the truth of history outworked (before video cameras were invented) to the understanding of a completely new generation.

 2006/2/1 20:20









 Re: EotS - Steve Saint thread

Krispy, you also said (p1 of this thread)

Quote:
If Abraham had [u]trusted[/u] the Lord to fulfill his promise then Isaac would have been the (only) son God wanted Abraham to have, and world history would have turned out completely different.

Did you know about Abraham's concubines?

Genesis 25:5, 6
And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

One of the points of discussion during the unfolding story in Genesis, is that Abraham and Sarah did not know whether either of them could have children. The outcome of Abraham and Hagar was [u]proof[/u] that Abraham at least, was fertile. The Bible refers to Sarah as barren (Gen 11:30), but of course, [i]they didn't know that[/i], while they were living through it. Can you imagine what a huge comfort it was to Abraham to realise the only reason he had not had children, was his wife's barrenness? This immediately shifted the focus on to whether God could over-rule Sarah's condition.

Genesis 20:17, 18
So Abraham prayed unto God: and God [u]healed[/u] Abimelech, and his wife, and his maidservants; and they bare children. For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham's wife.

So, Abraham's prayer life was nothing diminished for calling on his primary relationship to Sarah, namely, that they were very closely related, apart from marriage.


The other thing bothering me about what you said about Abraham, is, God called him His [u]friend[/u] [i][b]and[/b][/i] [u]imputed to him[/u] [i][b]righteousness[/b][/i] for his [u]faith[/u].

Are we not [u]obliged to accept[/u] [b][i]God's[/i][/b] assessment of Abraham's character?

......... In that He has called [i][b]us[/b][/i] 'friends', He has proved in our generation what kind of taste He has in friends..... You wanna grumble about that?

 2006/2/1 20:45
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Peter's dream

Quote:
Thus, Steve Saint is following a dream and an extra-scriptural religious saying in plain contradiction to the Bible.


If we did not carefully examine other surrounding facts and Steve's testimony, we could possible arrive at this conclusion.

Steve was not eager to accept the actor. It felt wrong, but it was also unethical to break a contract. The dream exposed the real motive of his reluctance - it was the fear of backlash.

This reminds me of God's request to Peter in the dream of the sheet and unclean animals. The dream helped Peter accept God's purposes - to have mercy to the Gentiles - something which to a Jew seemed totally against Torah Law.

It seems clear to me that Steve is not equally yoked with the world in this issue. His heart remains reserved for God, and I sense no compromise in his testimony.

It is also worth considering how those who opposed reacted - hardly Christlike, and hardly in a manner which would bring conviction to sinners (rather it would turn them away)

If this is indeed a divine appointment, we will see God's hand in it. (unless we're like the Pharisees who rejected many of the miraculous things Christ did.)
Diane


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Diane

 2006/2/1 21:28Profile





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