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Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re: Miss the mark?

Quote:
the Bible teaches that sin is a wrong moral choice.



All of these definitions of sin are correct. But the issue here is not what sin is but why we sin. Some here would argue that we sin because we choose to sin. But why do we choose to sin? We choose to sin because we love sin. Why do we love it? Because it is our fallen nature to love sin.

The Bible teaches that we sin because of what we are. God did not create us sinners but created the whole human race in Adam. And Adam sinned bringing the whole human race which was in his loins into the slavery of sin, corruption, and death.

We have a duel problem. We have sins which we commit and we have sin which is the bent of our fallen nature. That is was have a sinful nature that we inherit from Adam.

The Point of Romans 5 is that death is penal and through Adam sin entered into the world and death by sin so that death spread to all men... even to those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression.

The fact is death is penal and we all die. Even babies die.

Paul argues that sin is not imputed when there is no law, nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, signifying that death was reigning evenn before the Law was given. Though there was no law to comdem us for our behavior, yet we were already under condemnation.

We sin because we are sinners. We have no capicity to do otherwise. We cannot make ourselves rightouse and we act according to our nature. And the Law was given to us to expose this condition. The more we try to keep it. the more sin rises up in us and takes us captive. The more we resolve not to get angry and lose our temper, the more it rises up.

Even under the Old covenatn, No one could keep the Law. That is why the Levitial System was in place. The Offerings, the atonement, the sacrifices.

We may be able to control our behavior to a certian extent but we cannot control the well springs of our heart. You cannot make yourself love someone whom naturally you just can't stand. It is not in us to do so. We are sinners.

And the whole point is that as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. We come under condemnation through Adam's sin and we are justified in Life by Christ's redemption.

The Blood of Christ deals with our sins and the Cross of Christ deals with us as sinners. The Blood justifies us and on the Cross He terminated the Old Man, the Old Creation. We died in Christ on the Cross. And through the Blood our sins are forgiven and through the Cross we are delivered from our fallen humanity.

And by the application of the Spirit within us we are set free from our fallen human nature and we are enabled to live by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. And as we deny our own fallen life, we live by the indwelling Life of Christ and manifest the fruit of the Spirit which is Love, Joy, peace, patience, goodness, self control. These are fruits of the Spirit, not our self efforts at being holy and rightous.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/29 14:39Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: Sanctus

Quote:
It is the aim and the intent of the heart that determines if a person is holy or not.



There certainly is clarity in this statement. I would be interested in hearing some feedback from a few others on this measurement. Personally I like how it allows room for justification by faith even as it requires obedience.

This is an area that has given me much food for thought since joining in this forum. Growing up in fundamentalist baptist circles, we were never afraid of moral absolutes, biblical obedience or even good ol'fashioned legalism...but we wouldn't have imagined using the word "holy" to describe ourselves. I believe this reluctance was not because of a lack of desire to live purely...quite the opposite. I think the Calvinist DNA in many denominations, which frames God's holiness as something inutterable and absolute, makes many people understandedly reluctant to think of themselves as truly "holy." God alone is described by the awestruck angels, "Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus." In this setting for the word "holy", the more pious a Christian strives to be, the more painfully aware they might become of their own need for God's grace.

I'm not sure how this relates to the main direction of this thread, but I felt it might be helpful for people with different church backgrounds to appreciate this. When I first visited SI, I was frankly amazed to hear that people would refer to themselves as "holy"...it took a little time to see that my controversy with the description was not all based on differences in sanctification doctrines...some of it was simply a different practical application of the word "holy".

Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2006/1/29 14:59Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
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 Re:

Quote:
There certainly is clarity in this statement. I would be interested in hearing some feedback from a few others on this measurement. Personally I like how it allows room for justification by faith even as it requires obedience.



Holiness is Christ Himself. Only God is holy. And we become holy only by "partaking of the Divine Nature" as Peter says.

It is only as we learn to feed on Christ and assimilate Him as our daily food, do we have His holiness wrought into us by the Spirit.

We can never look at ourselves and say, "I am holy" But we can rejoice in the reality that this One who indwells us is the Holy One. And as we contact Him and live by Him we manifest His holiness.

Paul said in Gal. 2:20, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ lives in me and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me."

When we stop trying to make ourselves holy and begin to thank the Lord that He is within us as our holiness, rightousness, and everything, then we will begin to experience Christ as our holiness.

What we need is revealion to see what God has already done. He has redeemed us, justified us, regenerated us and put us into Christ and Christ into us. And only when our eyes are opened to see these divine facts, do we begin to act in faith trusting the indwelling Spirit to make them real in our experience.

As we daily feed on Him we will find that we no longer desire the impure things. They become repugnant to us. We find a LIfe within us working. We no longer have a desire to hang out with our worldy buddies. We will no longer be attracted to impure things and when we find ourselves attracted, we will call on the Lord and find His life immediatly setting us free.

IN this way we become constituted with Christ and we begin to Live Christ and speak Christ and are full of life and full of Light.

This is practical holiness.

"As you have recieved Christ Jesus the Lord, so also walk in Him".

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/29 15:25Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Graftedbranch,

Quote:
The Blood of Christ deals with our sins but the Cross of Christ deals [u]with the sinner terminating the Old man who is a sinner[/u] on the cross and in resurrection He brought into being a New creation



Is the Old Man in this model an individual or the corporate body of unbelievers under Adam?

But now [u]in[/u] Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain [u]one new man[/u], so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in [u]one body[/u] by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (Ephesians 2:13-16)

It seems evident in this passage that "IN Christ" we are members of the "One New Man" and are in "One Body".

There is [u]one body[/u], and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (Ephesians 4:4)

But speaking the truth in love, [u]may grow up into him[/u] in all things, which is [u]the head, even Christ[/u]: From whom the [u]whole body[/u] fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of [u]the body[/u] unto the edifying of itself in love. (Ephesians 4:15, 16)

Clearly we have revelation of the mystery of the Body of Christ, which as many members are fitly joined together and are under His headship (if you will). This is the same "One New Man" that was spoken of in Ephesians 2.

Now, we will gain insight into the "Old Man".

This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

We are told in Philippians 2 to "Let THIS mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus... who became OBEDIENT unto death- even the death of the cross." Gentiles walk in the vanity of thier mind, we are to have the MIND of Christ.

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness; But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation [u]the old man[/u], which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;.

Taken in context we seem to have a long teaching here on the contrast between the corporate "New Man" (which is in Christ) and the the corporate "Old Man" which is described in great detail.

As I understand these and linked passages in Romans, I John 2, John 8, and others one is a member of the New Man by virtue of being [u]in Christ[/u] and is a "New Creation." One is only a new creation that is IN Christ. And if they are IN Christ, they are members of the [u]one[/u] New Man. And vise versa if they are yet in Adam and members of what is to those who have been born again the "Old Man".

God Bless,

-Robert






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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/1/30 8:55Profile
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 Re: THE NATURE OF SIN.

This is taking a step backwards in the discussion but I have been away from my computer for some days.

freecd's

Quote:
Remember, without the choice of at least two things, love, obedience, holiness and sin cannot exist.

That would depend on your definition of 'sin'. Are you referring to the 'state' or the 'occasion'.

Quote:
Adam and Eve died in the moment they ate of the tree.


Indeed they did but what kind of 'death' are we referring to. Hebrew has a way of intensfying* a word by repeating it, so we have 'perfect peace' for those whose mind is 'stayed upon Jehovah', or as the Hebrew has it 'peace, peace'. 'holy of holies', song of songs, are all examples of this idiom. In Hebrew the warning given to Adam is “and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it — dying thou dost die.’”
(Gen. 2:17, YNG) It would not do it justice but it is the equivalent of saying 'you will really die'. This was not referring to physical death as is clear in that 'in the day of his eating' Adam did not die physically. This is spiritual death, real death.

In Rom 5:12 says that “because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;”
(Rom. 5:12, YNG) I have opted for Young again here for a couple of reasons. From this point forward into the next chapters of Romans the Greek nearly always refers to 'the sin' and 'the death'. It personifies them. We sometime personify a word by beginning it with a capital 'come in said Love'. Paul is not referring to the act of sin here but what we might legitimately call 'Sin, with a capital S'. This is not sin the act but Sin the person.

Paul reveals that it was 'through one man' that [u]S[/u]in entered the world. 'through' here is 'dia', the route that Sin took to enter the world was through 'one man'. Paul repeats the revelation later in the same chapter“But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift; for if by the offence of the one the many did die, much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ, abound to the many;”
(Rom. 5:15, YNG)'by one offence of one man many died' and remember we are not talking about physical death but 'real death'. Here too Paul constantly refers to 'the Death' (Death with a captial D). According to Paul [u]S[/u]in entered the world through Adam's 'one offence' and [u]D[/u]eath entered 'through Sin'. Eve's disobedience was earlier that Adam's but whereas Adam's disobedience opened the world to Sin and Death, Eve's disobedience does not seem to have any ongoing consequence. In spite of C S Lewis' pretty language, we are all 'sons of Adam' even the ladies. There are no 'daughters of Eve'. Adam's single act of disobedience opened the door of the world's sheepfold to Sin and Death.

Paul's Rom 5:12 goes on to reveal that there is a succession of single events here. Young's translation shows the impact of the Aorist tenses used...“because of this, even as through one man the sin [u]did enter[/u] into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death [u]did pass through[/u], for that [u]all did sin[/u];”
(Rom. 5:12, YNG)...by his use of the English 'did enter' 'did pass through' 'did sin'.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/1/30 11:42Profile
Graftedbranc
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 Re:

Quote:
Taken in context we seem to have a long teaching here on the contrast between the corporate "New Man" (which is in Christ) and the the corporate "Old Man" which is described in great detail.



Brother,

I believe you have an excellent grasp on this whole matter.

The Old Man is Adam. And we as his decendants are "in Adam". We are of Adam, in Adam and participate in all he is and all he did.

And the New Man is Christ in resurrection. He is the First Born of the New Creation. He is the Second Man. As the last Adam he terminated on the Cross the Old Creation, the Old Man and all he stood for and all that was in him. As the Second Man in resurrection, He brought into being the New Man of the New Creation. The One New Man of whom we are all members corporately in Christ. The one New Man in whom there can be no Jew or Greek, Slave or Free, barbarian, Sythian, etc. But Christ is all and in all.

I like this paragraph in, "The Complete Salvation of God in Romans":

"In Adam we inherited the nature of Satan as sin, constituting us sinners in essence and element. We also inherited death, which on the one hand, made us passive, weak, and impotent with respect to the things of God, and on the other hand, reigned first in our spirit, then through our soul, and eventually over our body. Furthermore, in sin and death, we became subject to the condemnation of the righteous law of God. As believers, we have been baptized into Christ and also into His death, a death that took us out of Adam. In additition, we were regenerated at the time of Christ's resurrection (1 Peter 1:3), and in that rebirth, through His resurrection, we were transferred into Christ."

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/31 9:49Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 From 'Make it Simple'

RobertW's

Quote:
'the speed at which our Old Man (the old man) is refreshing itself in its blatant wickedness is progressing.'

[u]I'm not sure I see the 'Old Man' like this. The 'Old Man' is steady state, it is in the individual that that 'refreshing' takes place rather than in society.[/u]

This will high-jack the thread. If you want to pursue the 'Old Man' line we could move to the Original Sin? Adam or Me? thread.

This is a carry over from the 'make it simple' thread. I underlined the part I hope to discuss.

Ron's quote:

I'm not sure I see the 'Old Man' like this. The 'Old Man' is steady state, it is in the individual that that 'refreshing' takes place rather than in society

My current line of thought on this (which seems to stay in a continual state of flux) is that our Old Man as the corporate body of Adam, ruled by the spirit of disobedience, would seem to be slipping deeper into wickedness or 'deteriorating' from the Image of God day by day on a corporate level. The whole of the human race under Adam seems to be decaying and the rate of that decay seems to be accelerating.

Now maybe I can split the horns of what I am saying to see if it jibes with Ron's understanding. Could it be that our Old Man is in a constant state (steady state) of rebellion, but yet the preventative judgments kept that steady state from being able to fully express itself. I.e. [i]'God made man upright, but he hath sought out many inventions, etc.[/i] Technology has not in fact increased the 'refresh rate' of our old man, it has merely made provision for those who are in Adam to more readily fulfill their lusts. And also because of the ease with which the flesh (oops) is made provision for, mens hearts are increasingly fully setting in them to do evil and their imaginations are increasingly evil continually. They are not there [u]yet[/u], but they are getting there (or should I say, "back there" (Genesis 6). I just see a connection between the individual and the corporate. Each person is making a contribution.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/1 16:35Profile
RobertW
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Posts: 4636
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 Re: From 'Make it Simple'

I wish to look at another aspect of the Old Man and that is the relationship between the Law and The Old Man.

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; [u]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances[/u]; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (Ephesians 2:14-17).

It seems that this passage required the abolishment of the law of commandments contained in ordinances in order that the new man could be 'made.' This takes me to Romans 7:1.

Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth

It is interesting that the analogy of marriage is used in this passage to describe the relationship between man and Sin and man and Christ. What I have never heard brought out is a comparison of what is described in Ephesians as the conduct becoming of a wife and our conduct when we were yet 'married' to Sin. I had a friend mention the other day that when he conducts weddings some have refused to have the stipulation of obedience required for the wife as part of the vows. Instead of "to have, hold, and obey" they want "to have and to hold" (only). I noticed this once when I watched Shadowlands (the story of C.S. Lewis) and how the word 'obey' was there in Lewis' vows and I cannot recall it being a part of any wedding I have ever attended.

There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, [u]how she may please her husband. [/u](I Corinthians 7:34)

Not only did our Lord die to Sin, but He also abolished the Law of commandments contained in ordinances. There is a tendency to want to please our master as human beings. It seems to me that the Law was used learn new ways to 'please' Sin by inverting the commandments. As we read on in Romans 7 & 8 it seems to indicate that the Law actually excited the unbeliever to commit sins as it gives Sin something to rebel against. What I am trying to understand is, are we loosed from Sin because we are dead to the Law (in Christ)?

This is important to me because under this model Sin did not 'die', but rather, in Christ WE died to Sin and there is a difference. And when we 'died' to Sin we were loosed from the Law of Sin. If we follow this out logically we will see that what keeps us dead to Sin is that we are likewise dead to the Law in Christ. In the event that we were to come 'alive' (for lack of better terms) to the Law, Christ is made of none effect in our lives.

So the question becomes, why can we not come under the Law if it is spiritual and [i]we[/i], the Born Again, are likewise spiritual? It seems to me that to come under the Law is to somehow resurrect Sin again and that to maintain our liberty from Sin in this life we must remain in Christ, dead to the Law, and filled with the Spirit. The Law is powerless to finish off what was begun in the Spirit. Why is that?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/2 9:04Profile
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 Re: From 'Make it Simple'

Robert W's

Quote:
My current line of thought on this (which seems to stay in a continual state of flux) is that our Old Man as the corporate body of Adam, ruled by the spirit of disobedience, would seem to be slipping deeper into wickedness or 'deteriorating' from the Image of God day by day on a corporate level. The whole of the human race under Adam seems to be decaying and the rate of that decay seems to be accelerating.

I know we have talked about this at length and I think you are probably getting the 'refreshment' metaphor from “That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Eph. 4:22, KJVS)

“that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit;”
(Eph. 4:22, ASV)

“that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,”
(Eph. 4:22, NKJV)I have quoted this in the ASV and the NKJV so that we can see how the translators are trying to give a sense of the continuing progress of corruption which is associated with the Old Man. The verb 'corrupt' is in a present participle and is in the passive voice. We might translate it "the Old Man, the one being constantly defiled".

Although I do believe that the 'Old Man' is the biblical expression of the human race's solidarity in Adam, I don't really think it functions as a 'corporate' entity in society. That concept, I think, would be that expressed in the terms 'the world'. Paul's reference is a reminder to his readers of what they had been taught. This is not really an imperative; an order. It is is a reminder that they were 'taught... to put off, concerning the former way of life, the Old Man'. Paul then further describes this 'Old Man' as 'the one being constantly defiled, as regards the lusts of the flesh'. I think this is a reference to the continual defilement caused by the Old Man upon an individual. (and an unregenerate individual at that, but that is another topic.) The nature of a man or woman in that old union with the Old Man can never 'improve'. It is constantly subject to a process of defilement. There is an OT passage which exactly describes how I see this process at work.“But the wicked are like the troubled sea; for it cannot rest, and its waters cast up mire and dirt.” (Is. 57:20, ASV) This is an aspect of 'total depravity' not that it implies that every act of man is 100% evil but that every act is 'defiled'; the depravity is all embracing, no part has escaped its influence. Just when you think its all calmed down the troubled sea spews up another load of 'mire and dirt'.

The Old Man cannot be improved. I don't think he can get any worse either.;-) This is what I meant by 'steady state'. We may think we observe improvement but short of regeneration the returning tide will regurgitate all the old depravity.

As regards whether or not things in the world are getting worse, or whether things have never been this bad is a different discussion. But even if they are I don't think it is because the 'Old Man' is worsening. It may, as I think you suggested, be that God is loosening the restraints.


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Ron Bailey

 2006/2/2 10:00Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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 Re:

Quote:
Although I do believe that the 'Old Man' is the biblical expression of the human race's solidarity in Adam, I don't really think it functions as a 'corporate' entity in society. That concept, I think, would be that expressed in the terms 'the world'.



I was going to ask you if maybe I was improperly mixing two things up; the world and the old man.

Quote:
I think this is a reference to the continual defilement caused by the Old Man upon an individual. ([u]and[/u] an unregenerate individual at that, but that is another topic.)



I am underlining 'and' here to try and understand if you feel that the old man still has some sort of influence on the regenerate? I have been wondering if their could be some clues in these discussions as to mystery of 'the flesh'. It would answer a lot of questions as to why a [u]Christian[/u] needs to 'mortify' the deeds of the body or not 'fulfil the lusts of the flesh'. I suppose the short question is, "where is the 'power struggle' coming from?"


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Robert Wurtz II

 2006/2/2 12:01Profile





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