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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Br GB,

Yes I agree that Scripture from Genesis to Revelation is a progression of the revelation of God. Yet, I was speaking more in terms of the progression of the revelation of the "Life" in all who live by faith. This progression is evident throughout Scripture. It is not only present in the Epistles of Paul. The Scriptures continually teach that those who live by faith are changed by that faith. And from what source does this faith spring?


You wrote:

Quote:
The Holy Spirit is our teacher. And as we read the Word it is the Holy Spirit Himself who opens up this word and who makes the Word Living and applicable to us. Without the Spirit the Bible is just dead letters.



In Psalm 119 we have the same methods of teaching and the same results of that teaching. Paul, like the writer of Psalm 119, share the same teacher. God does not change, therefore His revelation to man does not change. Listen to the heart of the one who wrote these words, are they not representative of the NT experience?

Psa. 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the LORD!
2 Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart!
3 They also do no iniquity;
They walk in His ways.
4 You have commanded us
To keep Your precepts diligently.
5 Oh, that my ways were directed
To keep Your statutes!
6 Then I would not be ashamed,
When I look into all Your commandments.
7 I will praise You with uprightness of heart,
When I learn Your righteous judgments.
8 I will keep Your statutes;
Oh, do not forsake me utterly!
9 How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word.
10 With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.
12 Blessed are You, O LORD!
Teach me Your statutes.

Continue to read the rest of Psalm 119, find the means by which all are taught by God and thus born of God.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/1/30 10:48Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Colossians 1:24-27 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

This is a special presentation of the mystery that was given Paul, which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. If we look at the words to fulfill the word of God, Wow. Paul received not only the fulfillment of the word of God but the direct revelation of Christ in a man, a new life and new birth that is all that we are and will be in Christ Jesus our life and new nature by the Father.

First fulfill: 4137. pleroo
Search for G4137 in KJVSL
plhrow pleroo play-ro'-o

from 4134; to make replete, i.e. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.:--accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Then: The word: 3056. logos
Search for G3056 in KJVSL
logoV logos log'-os

from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Paul is the embodiment of Christ in a man, we who believe are only fulfilled in Christ and this is the final Gospel that will be given to mankind and all that is necessary to become children of God, sons' and daughters' of The Living God our Father.

We must accept what Paul says as coming direct from Jesus Christ to each one that believes.

Ephesians 3:1-2 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Eph 3:3 How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul and Jesus Christ are one and Christ is coming forth in Paul as Himself. The work of Christ in a man. Again, which I have used many times before, which is so great a revelation that is seems unfathomable, but here it is right in Paul's letter and all his letters, as Christ in you the Hope of Glory: Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

No longer I, But Christ liveth in me: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/1/30 14:55Profile
Graftedbranc
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 Re:

Quote:
Paul, like the writer of Psalm 119, share the same teacher. God does not change, therefore His revelation to man does not change. Listen to the heart of the one who wrote these words, are they not representative of the NT experience?



Paul said the mystery which is 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory' is the mystery hidden from the ages but now has been revealed.

The Old Testament Saints knew nothing in experience of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory".

They had the Holy Spirit who communed with them, who came upon them, who inspired them, who did wonderful things. But He was alway exteriour, Not exterior to their soul, but He did not indwelling their spirit as Life.


To rob the New Testament of it's significance and uniqueness is to rob Christ of HIs accomplishment in incarnation, human living, suffering, death, and resurrection.

In the Old Testament, God's dwelling place was the tabernacle and then the Temple. The Ark of the covenant was in the holy of holies and that was the Place of the Divine Presence.

When the Lord came He HImself was the tabernacle. He was God's dwelling place among men. He, "Tabernacled among them (John 1).

And He is also the reality of the Temple. He said, "tear down this temple and in three days I will raise it up. But this He spoke conserning His body".

IN resurrection we are His enlarged body. As His body we are the enlargement of the Temple. As those who are regenerated and indwelt by Christ, we are "being built up into a holy Temple, the dwelling place of God in spirit" (Ephesians 2).

In the New Testament, We are the temple. Jesus said, "A day is comming and now is that neither in Jerusalem or in this mountain shall you worship. But, the true worshipers shall worship in spirit and in reality." Here the Lord distinctly spoke of a change in the state of things. Whereas in the Old Testament, Jeruslam, the place of the Temple was the place of worship. The day has now come when our regenerated spirit is the place of worship.

The Ark in the Tabernacle was made of acacia wood overlaid with Gold signifying Christ's humanity and His divinity. And in the Ark was the golden Pot signifying the Father. And In the Golden Pot was the Hidden manna which is Christ.

This corrosponds to John 14. The Father is in the Son and the Son is is the Father. And today our regenerated human spirit is the holy of Holies. Christ is in the Father and the Father is in Christ. And Christ brings the Father into us. Today the ark is in our regenerated human spirit.

There is a vast difference between God's Old Testament economy which is a type and shadow of the New Testament reality which is "Christ in you, the hope of Glory".

When Christ died on the Cross, the veil in the temple was rent, signifying that the way to the holy of holies was now open to all believers. Not just the levitial priests. And we today are the temple and our spirit is the Holy of Holies where the Presence of God dwells. And in Hebrews we are all told "to come forward into the holy of holies."

"know ye not that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit who indwells you?"

Nowhere in the Old Testament is the OT Saint spoken of as the temple of God and the dwelling place of God.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/31 8:05Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Br GB wrote:

Quote:
Paul said the mystery which is 'Christ in you, the hope of Glory' is the mystery hidden from the ages but now has been revealed.



Colosians 1 defines Paul's ministry, that appointed by God, to reveal the mystery to the Gentiles.

To be precise, the Gentiles never knew of this mystery. The OT speaks of a time when the Gentiles would enter into the inheritance and be grafted in amongst the Branches. The spiritual precept of becoming one with Christ has occurred thoughout Scripture. This is the only means by which God's promise to be God to you and you to be one of His people could ever exist. All things are created through Christ.

Genesis 17

7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.

This everlasting covenant is established in every generation.


Quote:
Nowhere in the Old Testament is the OT Saint spoken of as the temple of God and the dwelling place of God.



How have you come to this conclusion?

Could Joshua sit in the presence of God and not have what we have?


Ex. 33:11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.


Who was David's Lord?

Psa. 110:1 The LORD said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”


What does this Scripture speak of about the person that wrote it? What does he understand?

Psa. 16:2 O my soul, you have said to the LORD,
“You are my Lord,
My goodness is nothing apart from You.”


5 O LORD, You are the portion of my inheritance and my cup;
You maintain my lot.
6 The lines have fallen to me in pleasant places;
Yes, I have a good inheritance.
7 I will bless the LORD who has given me counsel;
My heart also instructs me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me;
Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;
My flesh also will rest in hope.

Remember that there exists a spiritual precept that those who live by faith become one with the Son and the Father. Faith cannot create anything else but oneness with God.

We are often influenced by dispensational theology in ways it was never meant to be. To rob the OT saints of their inheritance in the work of Christ and the cross is the fruit of this dispensational theology.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/1/31 10:40Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Ex. 33:11 So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.



As I said. the Presence of God was in the Tabernacle and if a person wanted the be in the Presenece of God, he went to the Tabernacle. Moses went into the tabernacle to speak with God face to face. Joshuah was in the tabernacle and remained there. They entered in by the washing of the laver and the sacrafices and the offerings. And God was in the Holy of Holies.

Where is this tabernacle in the New Testement? Where is the Shekinah Glory? Where is the Presence of God? He is not in the Burning Bush, He is not in the building. He is not in the 'temple made with hands" He is not hovering over us in a pillar of fire.

He is within us as the Indwelling Life Giving Spirit who brings God into us and make us into His temple, His tabernacle, and His House. Today our spirit is the burning bush. Our body is the temple and we are the tabernacle. We are being built togehter into a holy temple, the dwelling place of God in spirit.

As I said, no where in the Old testament was the OT Saint himself said to be the tabernacle, the temple or the dwelling place of God. But rather he went into the temple or the tabernacle where God dwelt.

And when God's Presence went with them, they took the Ark of the covenant with them because that was the place of God's presence.

Quote:
Could Joshua sit in the presence of God and not have what we have?



Joshua sat in the presence of God on the basis of the offerings. He had what we have in type and shadow. He had the signs of the realities we have as substance. And the Presence of God was in front of him, not within him.

The Sacrafices were all types and shadows of Christ who is the "Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the World As the book of Hebrews so clearly shows us. Christ is the Reality of all the offerings.

And the Tabernacle and temple were a type, a shadow, a picture of the reality of the body of Christ, the house of God and the Temple of God not made with hands.

The Old Testament had the types and shadows and pictures and prophecies. The New Testament has the Reality, the fulfilment, and the substance.

And this is so clearly spelled out in the New Testament that I am even surprised that it is questioned.

To have the Presence of God manifested in the Shekina Glory in front of you is one thing. To have the Presence of God within you is quite another. One is external, the other internal, one is outward, the other inward.

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/31 12:12Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Br GB wrote:

Quote:
To have the Presence of God manifested in the Shekina Glory in front of you is one thing. To have the Presence of God within you is quite another. One is external, the other internal, one is outward, the other inward.



This teaching of external verses internal seems a bit off doesn't it. Where does Paul teach this thought about external?

Imagine what might happen to a believer who also saw His Shekina Glory.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/2/1 9:03Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Br GB:

In Psalm 73 we hear this:

14 For all day long I have been plagued,
And chastened every morning.
15 If I had said, “I will speak thus,”
Behold, I would have been untrue to the generation of Your children.
16 When I thought how to understand this,
It was too painful for me—
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God;
Then I understood their end.



Was Asaph a member of "the generation of Your children"?

When Asaph entered into the sanctuary of God what did he recieve?

The types and shadows are real for those who enter into His rest. Faith does not create two different kinds of people.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/2/1 9:15Profile
Graftedbranc
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Posts: 619


 Re: The Presence of God

Quote:
The types and shadows are real for those who enter into His rest. Faith does not create two different kinds of people.



Ephesians 1:10 "Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and things on the earth, in Him..."

Apparently you have your concept which you hold tightly. Which seems to be that there is nothing new in the New Testament. That there is no change in God's dealings and relationship with man through the comming of Christ, His death and resurrection. That there is no "economy of the fullness of the times".

If our concept of God is outward. That is we see God as in heaven or in our environment, Or dwelling in a particular building or 'sanctuary" then our concept is very Old Testament.

In the Old Testament God dwelt in the Temple and the Tabernacle. He appeard to Moses in a burning bush. And Moses stood face to face with God in the Tabernacle. If you wanted to worship God you went to Jerusalem where the Temple was. That was where you worshiped God.

And Asaph went into the "sanctuary" and there recieved help with his problem.

But today, where is the temple? Where is the burning bush? Where is the sanctuary?

In all of church history, who has testified of God appearing to them outwardly in the Shekinah glory? This is impossible as God only revealed His glory in the Holy of Holies. And this glory was concealed behind the veil and only the priest could enter in and that not without the appropriate blood sacrifices.

Yet in the New Testament the Shekinah Glory was revealed. That is on the mount of Tranfiguration the Glory of God shone forth from the Lord Jesus Christ who was the tabernacle of God and the temple of God. "And we beheld His Glory, the Glory of the Only begotton Son of God".

And today through His death and resurrection He has produced the enlargement of this temple. That is His body which is the dwelling place of God in spirit.

And today the Presence of God is not in a building, or a temple made with hands. Neither is it confined to the One Grain of wheat, Christ in the flesh who was among us. But the Presence of God is in the regenerated spirit of His redeemed regenerated believers. That is where God dwells and no where else on the earth. Augustine said, "I wasted many years seeking God outwardly instead of inwardly".

And one day at our Lord's return this Glory will be manifested from within the Saints by His Spirit which indwells us and we will be tranfigured into His glorious image and will ourselves be the manifestation of the Glory of God.

2 Thess. 2:14 "To which also He called you through our gospel unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ".

In the Old testament God's Presence was outward. In the New Testament His Presence is inward as the Spirit of Life.

IN John 14 the Lord Jesus said, "but you know Him and He is with you and shall be in you.

Brother, You need to see the glory of the Lord Jesus, His work and His accomplishment in bringing God into us and taking us into God. This is something new. And only through the Lord Jesus' incarnation, death and resurrection is God brought into humanity and humanity brought into God.

Prior to our Lord's comming in incarnation, death and resurrection and ascension, there was no man in the Glory, There was no union with God and man. But in Christ's incarnation God was united with man and brought divinity into humanity.

And in Christ's resurrection humanity was brought into divinity and glorified and now as those who are in Christ and partake of Him, we share in this.

This was not the case in the Old Testament. The Old Testament is full of pictures, shadows and types of this. All the elements of the tabernacle show us these things. But they are a picture, not the reality. They were real. And God really did dwell in the Holy of Holies. But this is only a picture of God's ultimate purpose to make Man His dwelling place and man's regenerated spirit the Holy of Holies.

We need the eyes of our heart to be enlightened that we may know what is the hope of His calling and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritence in the Saints and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, which He caused to operate in Christ in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies...

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/1 11:59Profile
DaBookman
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 Re:

One of the other people who replied to this topic quoted "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God...." and he also Quoted from peter as "commending" Paul but if you Look a little closer at that scripture Peter actually insinuates that the letters of Paul ARE scripture.

2 Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,as they do also the OTHER scriptures, unto their own destruction."
By saying the phrase "other scriptures" when the topic is Pauls epistles, Peter clearly indicates his belief that Paul's letters are scripture. which would make them pure and refined seven times as silver. And profitable for Doctrine reproof, correction, for instruction in righteousness. Also who did Peter say wrested against PAul's letters? It was the unlearned, and unstable. He also said they did it to there own destruction. What are the "these things" that Peter mentions near the begining of Verse 16 of Chapter3 (2 Peter)back up and read from the begining of the chapter and see. HE is talking of the Last days....the return of Christ and how we should be living Holy lives. these men on this web sight are the ones warned of in the letters to Timothy the ones with "itching ears" who can not stand "sound doctrine". The scripture says and we believe the Holy spirit says through Paul "If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual let him acknowledge that the words which we write are the commandments of the Lord". Isaiah the prophet confirms that the 66 book bible is the scripture in that his book modles the bible as a sign. ie there are 66 books in the bible...there are 66 chapters in the book of Isaiah the first 39 books of the bible cover the emergence, history, and sin of the nation of Israel. The first 39 chapters of the book of Isaiah cover the same topic the 40th book of the bible MAtthew intoduces John the baptist and the messiah the 40th chapter of the book of Isaiah predicts the apearance of John the baptist and the rest of the book is about the messiah.the 66th book of the bible is Revelation of Jesus Christ the 66th chapter of Isaiah shadows many of the things revealed in the book of Revelation.Anyone who reads the epistles who has a heart to know God will know that they are the word of God for Jesus said "My sheep know my voice and they will by no means follow any other voice." Pauls letters are not really complicated at all. They in essence say Repent for the remission of your sins and you will recieve the Holy Spirit. You will be a new Creature all things will become new. You will have a Spiritual rebirth (be born Again)Die to self by the power of the Holy Spirit and renew your mind by the daily washing of the word. OUr flesh is corrupt. we need the word of God to make us think right.PAuls letters challenge sin in your life bluntly but the half hearted and the double minded just want to play games with God and keep there sin and there lives. BUt Jesus said those who seek to save there lives will loose it and those who loose there lives will save them unto life eternal and that is the essence of the message from Paul count all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of JEsus Christ our LOrd that you may KNOW HIM and the POWER OF HIS RESURECTION. all sin that is wraped around your and my heart is death. But by the spoken word of God the same word that spoke the Universe into existance is speaking life into you and me and setting us free from the wrong thoughts and desires of our corrupt hearts. For the Word of God is Quick (ALIVE) and POwerful, sharper than any two edged sword, and it Peirces (CUTS TO THE HEART) to the dividing assunder of soul and spirit bone and marrow and it (THE WORD OF GOD) is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of your heart.(HEB 4:12)Put your Trust in the Word of God in all your way acknowledge him (he is the word of GOd according to John 1:1) and he will direct your paths. His path leads to resurection.


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Frank White

 2006/2/1 12:57Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
What are the "these things" that Peter mentions near the begining of Verse 16 of Chapter3 (2 Peter)back up and read from the begining of the chapter and see. HE is talking of the Last days....the return of Christ and how we should be living Holy lives. these men on this web sight are the ones warned of in the letters to Timothy the ones with "itching ears" who can not stand "sound doctrine".



A small point missed by most is also that Peter says "as they do the rest of the scriptures..." meaning it is not confined to the matters of eschatology. It is not confined to matter's pertaining to the Lord's comming, but 'the rest of the scriptures also. Paul's words are twisted by these and they twist the rest of the scriptures to their own distruction.

Graftedbranch

 2006/2/1 14:20Profile





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