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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : can the teachings of Jesus be compared to those of paul's?

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JFEdgar
Member



Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio

 Re:

Quote:
here is where i get confused, i see the church adhering to the teachings of paul with things such as women's place, works and faith, elders, morality, gifts of the Spirit, etc.. but would paul recognize the church if he walked in on a typical sunday? also, why are paul's teachings so confusing and complex to adults as compared to the teachings of Jesus? if the Body was living as Jesus taught it, would the church need the teachings of paul?
peace out, jend
"he who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth: there is nothing false about him." john 7:18



I know, that in some ways, if the body was living as Jesus taught it, we would not need any bible. The early churches had no complete bible, and there are many churches throughout the persecuted world who would love to have a Bible but do not. However, that does not mean that the bible is not useful, and important. It is important as a backbone so that we can see ourselves clearly, and know that we are doing things the way God intended. The thessalonians, without any bible, became a very excellent church. The Corinthians, however, without any bible became a church full of sin and hypocrisy. If they had had a bible to compare themselves too, this might have been prevented.

I do believe that the primary thing in the Christian life is communion with God. If everyone in the church is communing deeply with God, and loves Him, and is pure in their motives then that church does not [i]need[/i] a bible. However, the bible is still a gift of God that we should cherish if we have it. As I said, there are many Christians out there who would love to have a full copy of the bible.

The bible, i think, can be compared to teachers. Do we need teachers? John says we do not (1 john 2:27). We can have a good relationship with God and discern all truth without teachers. However, God does make it clear that teaching is a gift He has given, and we should therefore take advantage of it. To neglect His gift is an insult to Him.

As far as your other question goes, I think Paul would very much recognize the church today, and would be very grieved by it (just as he was by the corinthian church). He would recognize the false Christianity that has crept in, that he fought so hard against in his own life. I think he would be extremely sorrowful at how widespread it is.

The more I read the bible the more I see it as a unified whole. I see its unity and inspiration more and more and I see how each of the 66 books are necesary and are definitely part of Gods word. This does not come from scholarly research, but from seeing how precious each book is, and how beautifully God expresses Himself in different ways through each of the different authors.


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Joe E

 2006/1/27 13:31Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
If everyone in the church is communing deeply with God, and loves Him, and is pure in their motives then that church does not need a bible.



I have to believe that what is actually ment here is that if we were in deep communion with God we would not need the Law. But the Bible is not the law. The Bible is the revealtion of Christ.

In John 17 the Lord Jesus said, "Sanctify them in truth, thy Word is Truth"

Hebrews says, "The Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two edged sword... able to devide soul and spirit".

The Word is the means and vehichle God uses to sanctify us. It is that which the Spirit uses to communicate the Living Word to us and to reveal Christ to us. Apart from the Word we have no way. The Written Word is that which gives definition to the Living Word.

As long as we view the Bible as a book of teachings and commands for morality, we will never enjoy it for what it is. It is a book of Life which reveals the Living Christ and communicates into us by the Spirit the very Christ whom it reveals.

"Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly."

"The Spirit touched, thy Word recieved, thy Life in me is thus concieved".

It is by the washing of the Water with the Word that we are sanctified.

The more of Christ we have within us, the more we love and appreciate His Words. The more we love the Bible. The more the Bible is a living book to us. We never graduate from the Word of God but find it more and more a book of life for us to eat and feed on the Living Christ.

Graftedbranch.

 2006/1/27 16:32Profile
JFEdgar
Member



Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio

 Re:

Quote:
I have to believe that what is actually ment here is that if we were in deep communion with God we would not need the Law. But the Bible is not the law. The Bible is the revealtion of Christ.



I do not mean the law. I mean the bible. I want to be careful here not to undervalue the bible, but the bible is not God, it is a gift from God to [i]help[/i] in revealing Himself and His will to us.

Jesus is the Word, and although He reveals Himself through the bible, this is not the only way to know Jesus. According to that line of reasoning, many of the early Christians could not and did not know Christ because they did not have a bible yet. This would also mean that many believers who are currently under persecution cannot know Christ, because they do not have a copy of the bible either. God is bigger than a book, and fully able to reveal Himself to one without the use of pages. Just as He revealed Himself to Paul in the Desert. As I said, I do not want to undervalue the bible. If you have the bible available to you and you do not take advantage of those precious pages, then you are insulting God. Also, in this day and age in this part of the world it is necesary for spiritual discernment for there are many false prophets in the world. However, we cannot lift up the bible as God or the only means to God. If you only know God through your bible, then you do not know God... for there are many who know their bible and do not know God.

Quote:
The more of Christ we have within us, the more we love and appreciate His Words. The more we love the Bible. The more the Bible is a living book to us. We never graduate from the Word of God but find it more and more a book of life for us to eat and feed on the Living Christ.



I totally and completely agree! Amen! And I do not want to create contention, I just think it is important to point out that there are many who know their bibles backwards and forwards and are totally lost. This is because God is bigger than the bible, and you can only truly know Him through the Spirit. And you can only truly know Him in the Word by the Spirit. But you CANNOT know Him in the Spirit by the Word. And I think that is one major problem in Christianity today, too many have a form of godliness but not the power. The form is much knowledge, but the power of the Spirit and the blessed communion we have with God through the Spirit is missing.


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Joe E

 2006/1/27 17:25Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

1 John 2:24-27 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

True, the early Christians did not have the written Word. They did have the anointing as John calls it, which they heard from the beginning of what John and Paul were teaching. Paul calls it revelation, John call it anointing.
They both come from the same place, The Holy Spirit.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

This is where they began to read the Word which was give direct to Paul by revelation of Jesus Christ Himself.

Ephesians 3:2-4 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Not only to the Romans but to the Ephesians and all that Paul spoke to, especially the Gentiles.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, The afore writing is ROM 16:25 and all else he spoke to.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

So whether it be by written Word or by the spoken Word it is revealed to us. The Holy Spirit is the One that gives us the anointing and the revelation of all that is Christ.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This is what we all will be judged by, according to Paul's Gospel which is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:23-28 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

In Christ, the final Gospel: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/1/27 21:09Profile
Graftedbranc
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Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Jesus is the Word, and although He reveals Himself through the bible, this is not the only way to know Jesus. According to that line of reasoning, many of the early Christians could not and did not know Christ because they did not have a bible yet. This would also mean that many believers who are currently under persecution cannot know Christ, because they do not have a copy of the bible either.



Acts 2:42 "And they continued steadfastly in the teaching and the fellowship of the apostles in the breaking of bread and prayers."

Colossians 4:16: "And when this letter is read among you, cause that it be read in the church of the Laodicians also, and that you also read the one from Laodicia."

Rev. 1:10,11 I was in spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, Saying, What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

Rev. 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches..."

________________________________________________

When the early church was born, there was no New Testament. There was the "apostles teaching" and if you read through the book of acts and read the sermons preached by the Apostles, they were full of references to the Old testament, the prophecies, the psalms, and the books of Moses.

The Lord Jesus Himself quoted scripture and used it often as a base for what He was saying.

As the New Testamant age progressed, the Lord through the Spirit in His apostles brought into being the gospels, Acts, and the epistles to the churches to contain the full revelation of God's New Testament economy.

The Lord culminated this with the Book of Revelation which is the record of the consumate Visions of the Bible and the goal of God's economy, the New Jerusalem.

The early churches had only the Spirit and Apostle's teaching in the beginning but when the New churches were established, the apostles spent much time, day and night teaching them and laboring among them.

Eventually it became necessary to write the epistles to them and Paul directed the churches to circulate the letters among the other churches. The book of revelation says, 'To him who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches." Was this a direct speaking? No, It was through the words He gave John to write and send to the churches.

John said, "You ahve no need that anyone should teach you but you have an anointing..." Yet He said this in his epistle which is full of teaching."

The Holy Spirit is our teacher. And as we read the Word it is the Holy Spirit Himself who opens up this word and who makes the Word Living and applicable to us. Without the Spirit the Bible is just dead letters.

But the Spirit without the Word is nebulas. That is He has no substantive material with which to work in our understanding, etc.

The Spirit uses the Word which He breathed out to impart Life into us and enlighten us. It is thrugh the word of the gospel of Jesus Christ that we believe into Christ and are regenerated. The Spirit through the word imparts the Reality of Christ to us and creates faith within us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ.

It is a false assumption to suggest Paul had no use for the scriptures but only opperated on direct revelation. On the contrary any reading of His epistles will show that He was steeped in the Scriptures and used the Shadows and types of the Old testament as well as the prophetes and psalms to communicate his "apostles teaching".

As Paul says of the Jews, "to this day, at the reading of Moses, a veil lies over their heart. But whenever the heart turns to the Lord, the veil is removed and we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being tranformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord Spirit..."

The veil is over the heart at the reading of Moses. The Old Testament is full of Christ. But they don't see Him in it. But when their heart turns to the Lord the veil is removed and thier eyes are opened to see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Sure, there are extenuating circomstances in which we don't have a bible, but those who have experiences such circomstances testify that they make a practice of reciting and praying through those verses they have memorized or have been told to them. And one evidence of being born again is a longing for the "pure milk of the Word".

The bible is not God, but the Bible is God's revelation of Himself. It is the record of God's dealing with man and the basis on which He deals with man. It is the revelation of His economy, the History of His redemption, and the revelation of the outcome of all His works.

The Bible and especially the New Testament is God's revelation breathed out from His very being in His chosen, redeemed, regenerated, transformed, and conformed apostles in order to bring all the saints in all the churches to the same place. That is redeemed, regenerated, transformed, and conformed saints.

"Sanctify them in truth, Thy Word is truth" - John 17 - Jesus Christ

Graftedbranch










 2006/1/28 11:11Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

If God's goal were merely to save people to take them to heaven then the Bible would not be so necessary. It would be enough just to hear the gospel and believe into the Lord Jesus Christ and be regenerated and recieve the Eternal Life.

And this was the state of things in the beginning of the Church.

But God's goal is not just saved individuals. His goal is the building up of the body of Christ as His expression on the earth. And the proceedure for this is the local churches. And the means to this end is the ministry of the Word which builds Christ into the saints and causes them to grow up in all things into Christ who is the head.

For this reason there is a progression in the History of the New Testament. It begins with the reception of the Eternal Life in Christ but as time went on, the epistles were needed to perfect the saints in their faith and to deal with heresies and other things which were creeping in and replacing Christ.

People can be saved with a minimum of truth. They can have life. But without the pure milk of the Word they cannot grow. Jesus Said, "My words are spirit and Life." and "He who eats Me shall live because of Me"

Without the Word the Spirit has no fuel, no milk to feed with and no meat to nourish with. Paul told Timothy that we are nourished by the pure words of faith and to the corinthians to "long for the pure milk of the Word to grow thereby.

God's goal is not many children who have His Life but full grown sons of God who are mature in the Divine Life, in whom the Word of Christ dwells richly, who have overcome the Evil One, and who are established and can "cut straight the Word of Truth."

Apollos was one who was saved and was preaching accurately the things of Christ beinng aquainted only with the preaching of John the Baptist. But Pricilla and Aquilla took him aside and instructed him more accuratly.

There is a need for that accurate, full, and complete revelation in the New Testament. Otherwise we may preach things good but not so good. We may have life but with no growth, no formation, no structure, and no consistancy. We need the Bible. We need it as food and drink. We need it for doctrine, for reproof, and instruction in rightousnes. God has given us His Word for this purpose. If we do not utilize it, God will not bypass it.

"The Spirit rides best in His own chariot"

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/28 11:38Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Br GB wrote:

Quote:
For this reason there is a progression in the History of the New Testament.



Have you noticed the progression you speak of contained in the Gospels?

It begins with miracles, then feeding, death, resurrection, and then understanding.

This same progression is also in the OT.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2006/1/29 12:10Profile









 Re:

Aw oh, somebody perked my interest to come look at this thread.


I guess Jesus' knocking Paul down off his donkey or whatever way he was traveling to Damascus and blinded him, etc. etc. and then giving him his calling and divine inspiritation to write 12 or 13 letters that turned into almost half of our New Testament, wasn't God's Stamp of Approval enough ?

Don't we stand on the Whole Bible being Divinely Inspired ?

I guess that's why the thread's title scared me away for so long. Paul's words are inspired by the same Holy Spirit that's called The Spirit of Christ and Spirit of Truth.

When that's understood, then we can really peace out, cuz Paul is a hero.


'Blessings',
Annie

 2006/1/29 18:09
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Don't we stand on the Whole Bible being Divinely Inspired ?



Amen Annie

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/29 18:54Profile
Graftedbranc
Member



Joined: 2005/11/8
Posts: 619


 Re:

Quote:
Have you noticed the progression you speak of contained in the Gospels?



There is a progression of revelation in the whole Bible. From Genesis to Revelation.

Genesis is the Seed of all the revelation to follow. And it's been said that every revelation in the Bible find's its beginnings in Genesis.

A seed contains all the life of the plant. And the plant grows up into full blossom. This is the bible.

Thats why I guess it is called, "Genesis' (beginnings).

Graftedbranch

 2006/1/29 18:59Profile





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