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destinysweet
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Joined: 2007/11/19
Posts: 159


 Re: In examining the root causes for the difficulties I am seeing

Understand that I've been writing this for a few hours..it is possible that someone else has already posted a similar thread..perhaps better and more briefly said..but in faith and with much prayer I have gone ahead and posted.

I've never heard of David Hogan until reading the views presented here,the testimonies and all that has been written here..I know that Brother Tom has left all to go out to many foreign countries to preach the gospel.He is no desk theologian..I trust he knows what he observed operating in brother David's life..I also believe that we are being shown all of this for a very crucial reason.There some things that I feel impressed to bring into this conversation regarding this type of calling,those who are observers only and the built in dangers that accompany it all on both sides..I only have the hard won understanding that God has given me to bring to the table..may it be wholesome to the taste..a sweet savor to God in the sharing.

Personally speaking,God told me that America was my mission field..first and foremost.Anyone who thinks that America is not a dangerous place to minister ought to think again.The whole 'I am as tough as nails' thing goes with the territory of being called upon to walk through great danger..I have heard myself say fiercely,'Make my day!'(a remnant from some action movie I once watched)in setting out on a new day that I knew would be wrought with unknown dangers during what you'd think was only a simple prayer walk down the coast.. it was a stance that said..throw at me what you will I will succeed because it is God who is sending me..He goes before me and is my rear guard..and He does not intend that I will fail!It is a facing of the fear headon..refusing to buckle down..and there can be a proud element that comes in,a place where we can become twisted ever so slightly out of plumb with our lowly,loving,Savior if we are not dilligent.What begins as only a degree off, left unadjusted will take even the most anointed servant so out of alignment..that were they able to see where they fell they would be completely undone..Thus we must be wise in what we sat we see if we have not spent the time to pray once seeing..lest we too be held accountable for doing nothing to uphold the ones who we criticise.

Anyone who has not been called to minister primarily in the 'jungles' of America only has a limited point of reference.Are there no murderers,sorcerors,rapists,demon possessed,lawless badguys on every level of society in America? One who has become familiar with the trials/dangers/deprivations of one location,may not have a clue as to what God is doing in the lives of His surrendered ones in America. Simply because God may have preferred to keep these things hidden for a time it does not mean many(though we know we are few relatively speaking) aren't risking everything in obediance to God's call in what is considered 'civilized' territory.

Satan always goes after whatever area that can be exploited in our lives. Mostimes it the places where we see ourselves as being so strong that become our greatest weaknesses..we will remember that His strength is perfected in weakness..in my weakness He is strong..we need balance..Jesus provides for this balance..He is mighty and strong..able to endure all things in us,He strengthens us..but it is His humility that secures us..His mercy that protects us. The boastful pride of life can be subtle..it is the pointing to ourselves in even the smallest of ways that do not glorify God.Our motivations can be hidden when we are unused to looking at ourselves with informed honesty..I am guilty of this at times..mostly when I have been stretched or am emotionally weak..fearing rejection,being defensive due to unfair criticism..that is when my weakness can be exploited..I react unthinkingly instead of being able to respond..which gives me time..a moment of reflection to weigh the necessity of answering or not.If I am not kept current in dealing with what is unfair,being quick to forgive,I will become brittle and proudly defensive..adopting a contemptual attitude for those who are in denial of the work that God has done/is doing.I am more than willing to admit this to help myself be more accountable in reigning in any untoward comment that I might be tempted to make in the future..this is an area I want to have a more complete victory over. If I use what God has done with me as a weapon to goad others or to shame them or as a shield of defense..I have fallen into a snare..'I have done this in Christ! I have seen this,I know this!' If my motive for telling what God has done,or what i know to be true is not born of love and necessity..and expressed in the meekness of wisdom..I have fallen into a snare..my weakness will be exploited,turned in a manner that will do the very opposite..cause others to resist me and the message I bear further. If I am unaware of how my own weaknesses can be used against me and thus the body of Christ as a whole..I will be unable to respond righteously. I will begin to war against myself,because if we are one,then to fight against..have contempt for..be rude and impatient with you,the brethren, is to do it to myself. When I take a stance against an entire group,classifying them as wrong because I've decided that they aren't where they need to be and not having been in much genuine prayer for them...I will not have the love required to make the most impact upon them should I be given the opportunity in an up close and personal way..my judgement,resentment,dissapointed expectations will lead instead of my willingness to be used of God to equip them..to war for them..when I war against I will be looking at them to find a weakness..where are they vulnerable. I will speak about their weakness..condemn or shame them purposefully..like a hostile bully. This is not wisdom.

We are most always seeking to protect ourselves from unnecessary harm..we say we do not love our lives..but the very way we avoid suffering belies our ablity to know ourselves in truth. We will often say we don't care if we are accepted ..but it is not completely true..We know we are not to be swayed by what others think of us,we are before God continuously,living a life that is undeniably cleansed outwardly and are trusting Him for all the inward,these inward things are not nearly so noticeable ways we can be out of plumb with the fullness of the Godhead which dwells bodily in Jesus. We can trust God to be our defense..He may have us explain,when others balk and this is out of mercy..but we will be given the meekness of wisdom in doing so. When we are too attached to being accepted we will see others opinions as offensive..a thrust against us personally,thus we move into a warlike stance and become defensive..and the battle begins in earnest.

Long ago,during a season of deep emotional healing,something happened that opened for me an understanding I have never forgotten.This interesting piece of information was revealed to me, beginning one morning while peacefully wiping down my counters having finished doing the dishes. Out of nowhere..I blurted,"I don't care! I just don't care!"..it shocked me to hear this..only a moment before I was singing a little tune to God..so joyfully content in my work..what on earth? why of course I cared,what didn't I care about..if it came out of me,there might be something going on that I didn't consciously realize.Where did this outburst come from?

Later on in the day it happened again..Now I was really confused..what's going on,Lord? He said He'd show me later..not to be concerned..and so I put it out of my mind.After dinner and children's baths,stories and singing them peacefully to sleep ..it was my time to open my bible,a Christ centered book about the walls of our hearts (my church was using this text to help facilitate a woman's emotional healing course that the men soon decided to join into for themselves)and my journal.

I was rereading where God and I had left off in my writing.I kept track of my progress because what God was doing was so amazing..plowing through every type of block and where it first began in my life,the root causes. Opening memories that had been used to torment my mind..teaching me to forgive the perpetrators who'd been responsible for what I'd suffered. moving me forward into the light of His freedom to love unhindered by my past.I suddenly had a memory flash..one where I was being beaten ,fully clothed into the tub of my bathroom..for yrs I had sought who had done this, why it had happened..but I had nothing but the helpless pain and confusion..my mother had been brutalized as a child by her mother..this while in a Japanese prison of war camp in Indonesia.My mother's main sense of joy was her little sister ,who was born and then died of malnutrition in the camp at 3 yrs..it crushed her..broke something inside.She was never able to fully recieve me ,or love me from my birth..perhaps afraid I too would be taken..so best not to love at all.So when I remembered her beatings that went way beyond controlled discipline into madness..this beating must have come from my mother..but something seemed wrong in this..why could I not remember?

Wait..this evening the whole event opened and oh..how could it be ..it was my father! myt father was not normally my abuser!? Suddenly the full story opened up before me..I'd run away for the 3rd time..unable to fight back..one did not hit one's own mother ..I'd chosen flight. I would stay away until I was caught,hiding wherever I could find shelter.Having been tipped off as to my whereabouts he'd ben able to bring me home..we must have sat in the bathroom together while he talked to me for hours..he was unaware that I was being abused regularly..it floored him yrs later to find out..he wasat his wits end that day..my actions to him were inexplicable..he'd worn himself to a frazzle trying to get me to understand,to understand what I needed but without the key facts,his words only caused me to be lulled into a sense that I was loved..that he cared enough to spend time with me..I was practically asleep,exhausted when he announced that I would need to go get a change of clothes..something warm for the county jail..the juvenile hall was closed for entrance on the weekends..my reaction was one of hysterics..I was being abandoned..his love was not real ..he had no answers for my dilemma..he was giving up on me!.I must have scared him..causing him to think I was going to bolt..I was crying out no! oh no! how can you make me go there..it's cold and dark and boring in the grownup jail..looking from side to side wildly..he struck out believeing he had to subdue me. His frantic fearful blows hurt more than any and all that my mother's anger had inspired. He'd been driven almost crazy fearing for my safety..he had me in his grasp and could not afford to lose me again ..said he didn't know if he would be able to survive the anguish,the pacing ,the fear of not knowing where I was..what was happening to me..(what he didn't know was that I'd been nearly killed the day before..rescued by one of my guardian angels from a mad possessed killer) The only solution he had was to put me where he knew I'd be safe.But to me,relieved to be back home..childishly hopeful for my place in the family being restored,all forgiven, this move was very threatening..to me it meant I was not loved enough to hang in there with,to keep trying till we could uncover the problem..if you won't love me in the midst of this turmoil..not realizing that that he didn't have all the facts..so when I was helped out of the cold hard tub..his apology ringing in my ears..I'm sorry, didn't want to hit you, to hurt you.I was scared you'd run..I'd lose you for good..his fears could not comfort my crushed heart at thinking I was being thrown away. As I crossed the threshold into my room to put on something warm enough for a jail cell..I heard myself say,coldly,"I don't care! If you won't love me even though you don't understand,well then I just don't care! Now I had full understanding where this strange and vehement statement had come from.A hidden place in my past!

The Holy Spirit revealed all those long yrs later that this was a defensive mechanism I projected like a tough shield around my heart to survive the pain of rejection..it is our way of surviving what is unbearable..it is sin..I was unable to bear the pain of being sent away..of not being allowed to just be recieved back into the family fold for another try..I was expendable..unwanted.It was too much..I felt the shield go up as a part of my personality was hardened against caring whether I was loved,accepted in spite of my troubles or simply discarded as too much to deal with.

So that evening under the back portal..I wept at the opened memory..telling my earthly father in my mind(and later on face to face) that I forgave him for not knowing what was going on in his own home,with me.Then came the kicker..God said I needed to ask Him,God, to forgive me for my sin..I was suprised..me!? why?..how was this sin..I was abused.. I was a child..I never knew any better,no one taught me how to deal with this stuff..why should I be responsible.. show me what heading this sin comes under,I balked.

"It just isn't my way..that's why it is sin." was the plain response.."It was denial,untrue and it began in you a pattern of behavior that has undermined you..prevented a part of you from maturing..you did care..you cared so much you refused to feel it anymore.".and I wept remembering the moment before I made this choice to stop caring..and then the numbness that resulted..the hardness that grew in place of the suffering I refused to embrace.He convinced me that when I forsook this way of denial,of sin..sin simply because it wasn't His way,He would remove this root of bitter resentful hardness that had caused me to grow in a tangled manner..it was the beginning of great healing in my father and my relationship,Praise God! It was a breakthrough. Soon after I was able to identify a spirit of rejection that entered my vunerable soul at 2...after a few yrs of being mostly ignored by my mother who simply could not connect..feel any love for me..a spirit vs.just a festering emotional wound and was able to get deliverance from this ruthless foe. God is committed to our healing.We cannot stand in righteousness if we are ignorant to the workings of our souls.

It is good to understand what manner of person we are before we attempt die to our flesh..God would have us be filled with His wisdom and understanding..He would have us be able to recognize the difference between the soul and the spirit.When we have spent time as needed coming to know what helped form our personality..our way of coping,defense mechanisms that are often deeply ingrained and hidden from our own eyes,unless God shows us mercy..leading us gently out of the long dark tunnels of our own making. When we are willing to allow God to reveal where we need healing,it becomes all that more simple to see where others have need of compassion and the prayer that can move mountains for them to begin upon this journey towards healing their souls. I was led to see my need for deeper healing when I began to desire to walk in God's love consistantly..I knew I needed to be conformed more perfectly to Jesus in being able to love with divine love,agape love which did not love in order to be loved in return. Agape love is what gives us the ability to suffer righteously..it is God's love that cannot help but to be concerned..cares for the other regardless if we are loved and accepted,understood or believed.It says I will care righteously for all who I come in contact with,irregardless of how they respond to me.

My ears prick up when I hear someone say..I don't care if I am recieved,or if they recieve my words..because I know the Holy Spirit cares very much if they don't recieve the truth..So I know this one has yet to understand the workings of his own soul in this denial of care..God brings us not to a hardened stonelike place in our hearts,..but rather to a soft and tenderhearted place,that is not afraid or unwilling to suffer..we don't always grieve because it is we who are rejected ..no.. but if we feel hurt it is mandatory to admit it..not holding onto the emotion..but not denying it either, asking for the divine perspective..How would you have me see this..in time we will be trained to know the higher perspective..the compassion that flows towards those who are blinded by doubt and unbelief..the caution we all rightly feel due to the reality of false signs and wonders..we can praise others for their dilligence to test and try us..they may see something we are blind to and with the meekness of wisdom trust God to settle it all in our hearts and minds as well.

In dividing between soul and spirit..through the bone to get to the marrow..I am becoming more adept at sensing when my hard stance is bone without the lifegiving marrow of His Spirit.I am fortunate in being made a woman..we are known to be more intouch with our emotions..I know it is difficult for men to give much heed to the emotional part of their being,oftimes it is considered weak,feminine to be rightly sensitive..but God gave us emotions..God is an emotional God..Jesus was emotional..perfectly so..He does not do away with our souls..He transforms them to be conformed to Christ.

I have known many men who have come from radical pasts..who have been used of God mightily only to fall prey to many weaknesses due to an inability to determine where they needed healing in their souls..this being left as unimportant to allow God to deal with,or for them to pay attention to..as something too uncomfortable to sit still long enough to be given clear insight into.and so they were made weak where they thought themselves too strong to bother giving attention to... this became their Achilles heel..they grow everywhere else but in the very place they would someday needed to have had the understanding..it also hinders them from being able to rightly address other's problems effectively. The Counselor aspect of Christ's ministry in us is left undeveloped..we are not able to be utilized to lead others were we have been unwilling to go ourselves.

When God has His way with me in tearing down my prideful barriers..I see that I do care..it is grieveous to God that I not be accepted..for me to not acknowledge the pain it causes me and God is to be in denial of what is true..better for me to weep and be free of any harsh tough edgyness that will eventually get in mine and others way..this saying 'I do not care!" in whatever the circumstance is nothing more than a hardening of the heart..a self protective unrighteous shield against suffering..because there is suffering in rejection..we don't know how to embrace the suffering for righteousness sake very well at all,we have to be trained in this..it is not natural to man..it is heavenly.

Many of the folks who are called out to do these more obvious works..or who face great dangers are misunderstood by those who have never known such a life..a common mistake many make is to see the outward dangers as being the greatest obstacles..we are wowed by this stuff..action hero stuff..but if you'd ever been involved in a calling that faces danger you would soon find..God has abundantly provided for all this..it is all dialed in for you..maybe with men it does not appear to be so..perhaps you are always thinking you could fight your way out of anything that got physical unless you were too outnumbered..but God impressed upon me when I don't try to defend myself ,more than likely the angels will step in and perform their function...if I am relying on my own strength they probably will not be moving due to my mindset..Many underestimate the fact that God does not send where He does not defend..also..He gives you the ticket right before the train..(from Corrie ten Boom's story)should you be called to leave behind your body because of some evil doers wicked plan..all is provided in the stand and deliver dept.,grace enabling us to get the job done.

Where our action figure type ministers are in the most danger is in what comes against them on the inside..will we ,as one with them ,know what we are looking at when we see that they have not had a chance for their soul to catch up to what God is doing with their yielded spirit..It is God who is doing the work through their spirit which is one with Christ..while the oftimes immature soul trails behind. This is how I come to see it..If I am not given any down time to process what has transpired during times where alot is happening in a constant and prolonged period of time..our soul needs maintaining..where have I been wounded and not forgiven,have I become proud because of this great favor..has Satan planted something subtle that will cause me trouble should I not recognize his scheme? Knowing my own history helps me to be watchful over the places I have fallen before..but it also helps me be more firm..and honest with myself.

We do not like to admit that we are not already so spiritual that we never need to watch over our own souls..this is why God has provided everyone else who can see you much more clearly..they are not as invested in believing that you are perfect and in no need of help. Although many become blinded by someone's calling or gifts..thus swallowing everything they say and do,defending them like a shield..these identify with the gift..the calling..usually aspiring to a similar one..we are to aspire to be like Jesus..we are to be faithful to our selves..our whole body to help maintain one another's health..spirit soul and body as called of God..when you have a person who is not very emotionally mature..has little understanding regarding his own soul..which does not always mean they will be obviously overly emotional..it can be the opposite...they can be cut off from the wholesome aspect of a transformed soul..mind will and emotions..you can float for a time..operating in the spirit..as God deems it so..but there comes the time in every believer's life when they will be brought to see their need to allow God to work in their emotions.If not they just grow harder and more rigid and brittle lacking in emotional insight and become entangled in the works,office or calling being 'who' they are,not something God does through them. this is to lose the innocense of a being a child of God.

Without the needed balance,'their' ministry or what they identify with is all tangled up with what makes them 'important'or their 'proof' that they are in right standing with God..how can we be in right standing with God if we have hardened against our own body. When we say we don't care we have become hardened.

For years when people asked what do you do..I would answer something like..it is not what I do..it is what I am..I am a child of the living God.This way I moved them out of trying to compartmentalize me by my function ..whether they were worldly or redeemed..I would have them know me by the spirit not according to the flesh..I also desired to level the field..bring the interaction to a place where we were children..open and eager to make one another's aquaintance for the sheer pleasure of having a new friend....this disarmed folks into dropping their own need to be something esteemed of men or even looked down upon,judged as less than. If they were going to interact with me, it wasn't going to be about how I could be an asset to them in any other way but to point them to the Father right off the bat..establishing a taking off point for them to examine where they themselves were in that perspective.This is not to say that what we do isn't important in the overall scheme of things..we are to do righteously..doing all as unto God..but even our righteousness God gives us this, so that no man can boast..except in God's great and exceeding mercy.

When we get angry with someone who gets stretched the way someone like David Hogan does,,becoming indignant with his frailties..this shows a lack of understanding as to the nature of man's soul.When it comes to our attention that he is in trouble,it is then our responsibilty to lift him up where we see his weakness.Do we speak out and say where he is not presenting the full truth..this should clue us in to where he is being distracted..or has begun to lose his focus..be a doer of the word right where you are..be a partaker in the ministry that is in danger of going off track..help support the weak places God is allowing you to see..first with your prayers..and partake of the reward..must we always be reminded of the reward to become more motivated to love righteously.

When we rise up in indignation..is it our pride rising up to meet the pride we see in the other..pride does not conquer pride..it only fuels it all the more..we claim we are defending God..He needs no defense from us..we are all being tested in all this..the reporter and the reciever of the report.So when the one who is rejected..which Jesus warned we would be.. is unable to process this unpleasantness in a Christlike manner..this one will begin to harden under the strain of the test should he become offended by the denial of God's work..and possibly because of his overidentification with the work/gift itself..instead of drawing closer to the One doing the work,Jesus..this hardening due to denial is another form of denial..thus sin begetting sin..the naysayers shame is in what he helps to cause in another..but everyone is ultimately unable to cast blame. God sees it all.This becomes a place where we can share in His sufferings..because He still suffers with us in all things..we can embrace the suffering and the fact remains that the unreceptive attitudes of those who refuse to acknowledge God's work when it is of Him ,grieves the Holy Spirit..grief hurts folks..you can feel it,sense it in your spirit. This is not immature flesh..this is being attuned to God.


We are exposed by the words we choose to use to state our position when we feel threatened..when our validity is questioned..the carnal man will defend himself against the suffering that comes from having to embrace rejection,
putting up a shield that is not born of faith..Warring within the ranks against one another is counterproductive and it happens in more ways than we are usually aware until we are brought to task under the thrall of God's perfect agape love.

There is the comparison problem that plagues anyone who is used of God..this is merely competition..it is unholy as is ambition concerning the things of God..who is the most powerful..anointed..best..and on it goes..I don't like to see anyone say things like..he is the most this and that preacher in the land..yikes what are you trying to do to the guy..take him off the pedestal brother..you are going to throw him off the first time he is caught out in something you don't approve of anyway. Satan's tactics for snaring the believers is not hidden from us..we would be wise to consider,while the one goes out and upon coming back reports in to encourage and exhort..while the other sits observing the presentation..whether solid in the conviction they are doing all God has called them to at the time..both are being tested..the tactic may differ in how it manifests..but the goal is still the same..get them to war in the ranks..divide and conquer! What I see as the danger to those who do actually go..I mean really Go without any reservations is that there will come a time when Satan will approach and present His damning judgements..to the zealous man ,scripture will be used to cinch the condescending judgemental noose round his neck..it will come as a railing and seemingly justified attitude towards the folks who these have 'discerned' as not living up to their true callings(as if they were our servants and we know all things)..this is none of our business,,really..and yes this type of arrogance is very noticeable..especially when you are a doer of the word as well..but not all are called to be the same type of mover and shaker in the kingdom..there are diversities of ministries..a hidden intercessor will be just as obediant and just as 'powerful' full of grace and divine unction as the guy who faces down the 'bad guy' nose to nose..because the intercessor faces the very powers behind the flesh and blood guy who is merely a pawn for this darkness.

What David Hogan has perhaps lost sight of in the midst of the rigorous strain of what he has endured, what he has been called to be in the kingdom ,is the reality of the entire body being jointly fit together,moving in unison following the Head..Jesus..empowered by our Head Jesus who makes us all one.

Someone who continually sees themselves as superior to the rest of the body obviously does not realize what is going on behind the 'scenes' that they get to partake in.Not everyone is required or qualified to do the kind of work that is being described here on this post about this type of ministry..God makes everyone of us uniquely qualified for the work we are called and then chosen to partake in. We are perfected in the work as we go along..no one has a clue until he begins in obediance..this is a matter of diversity not comparisons..without the prayers of the saints..without all the other lives being lived righteously,sprinkled strategically like salt across the planet..Christ being made manifest on the earth through all of these.. the darkness would be so great..it would be nigh unto impossible to step outside our frontdoors for the lack of restraint in the sinful deeds of those who do not walk in righteousness.Any one who has begun in this type of seemingly greater work that does not understand to be extremely grateful to God for placing those in the body who stay put and pray in power..intercessors that are upholding us when we begin to stumble over ourselves..that without them we would not be so successful..no part of the body succeeds without an enormous amount of support from the functioning whole.

I have seen in my own life how God has made certain to impress upon me the very clear awareness that wherever I am no matter what..I carry with me the entire body of believers within..in my heart. We are either onebody inone spirit serving one Lord..all of one basic faith or we are lone wolves..the idea of being a lone wolf is enough to shake anyone out of their proud stance..heaven forbid we lose sight of the bigger picture.

I present myself before Him for that continual and further purification of any last vestiges of pride,especially in the way I view my fellow Americans..and all the rest of the body at large..to set myself in a category in my own mind as being superior to anyone simply because God made me the way He did is ignorance..God's decision regarding what I would be capable of enduring or understanding has nothing to do with how amazing I am..not ever. We are just not amazing..He is though..very much so! He has taken it upon Himself to teach us what we need to know to be who we are in regards to His divine will..He guides,He moves,He positions..it has nothing to do with what a courageous, endurance oriented,able to do without,tough and special person I am..forget it..any surrender I have achieved ..this is from Him..whatever impact I have had..this is still Him..it has been what I was called to do..He taught me as I obeyed Him..He provided discipline,even the obediance..it is not something to boast about..but if I am called to share to increase the faith of others,to inspire my brethren to never fear because no matter what God is there for us,mightily..then I must share as He bids me.

The one area I have seen where we become displeasing to God after being used to do whatever God does thorugh us, is when we compare ourselves among ourselves..this is not wisdom.

Gracious is the soul that can inspire without guilt tripping or shaming folks repeatedly..this is manipulation..it is a power trip..and we must pray for those we see having reached a certain threshold in their service..its simply their due service..they were designed to weather those conditions..it is nothing of any great thing to marvel over,except to marvel at the Creator Himself..it is God who is giving them the strength and stamina..the courage itself comes upon saying yes..I will go..it is provided..we cannot boast of these things..He provides these virtues as it is necessary to getting the job done..tools for the trade if you will. When we forget these simple facts we become full of our own achievements..simply because we were allowed to take part in something marvelous,and then to turn around and bash others over the head with how magnificent 'our' ministry is when it is Jesus' ministry through us ..well no doubt people have begun to resist this..It becomes difficult to bear..however in this lies the challenge for those who can see where the one made for tromping through jungles needs our help.. because he does not discern perfectly the body he will become sick..i se that he is not well inly by what has been revealed.. all is not well with him emotionally..and yes,it's true, many are asleep at the wheel..we must be so full of faith for these..seeing that which is not as though it was..we will believe for God to mercifully reveal what we see the brother needs,supplying the lack in the right heart and mind ..hopefully before a terrible fall...and also praying in nonjudgemental concern..with genuine love..believing for God to awaken the ones who are dozing and/or indignant in the pews...how can we war for them..support them..we support ourselves in this effort..must we need to be reminded of how we will be benefitted in our prayers for the brethren to motivate us?

We praise God for the work He is doing..we desire to help protect the weak who are blinded by there own strengths and having become blind are headed for a fall.. this is our ever present challenge..will we carry a torch for all who believe regardless of where they may differ or are weak..may we take up this same torch and run with it.


_________________
G.M. (Destiny) Sweet

 2008/4/5 1:36Profile
JesusInMe
Member



Joined: 2008/4/5
Posts: 4


 Re: David Hogan?

Brethren, let us guard the door of our own hearts before searching out the hearts of others.

In this we shall do well.

 2008/4/5 23:53Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi JesusInMe...

Quote:
Brethren, let us guard the door of our own hearts before searching out the hearts of others.

In this we shall do well.

Amen! But let us also guard our own hearts from believing the claims of every individual who claims to perform the "miraculous."

When I have sat in the congregations of David Hogan, the meeting reminds me of many other "miracle" preachers. The messages are usually filled with testimonies of the miraculous and suggestions about what to expect at the end of the meetings. I'm not saying that this is "the power of suggestion" -- but many of these sort of preachers appeal to our emotions with fantastic stories of the supernatural. From David Hogan to Rodney Howard Browne (both figures in the "Toronto Blessing"), the messages usually involve storytelling rather than a presentation of the Gospel. People already know what to expect at the end of the David Hogan meeting.

David Hogan will both thrill and inspire the congregation with supernatural tales of trips to unnamed villages in Mexico. He will talk about getting chased (physically) by Satan, talking to a demon in a 8-12 foot tall owl, and how God has used him to raise over 300 (or sometimes, 500) people from the dead. At the end of the meeting, Hogan will call for people to come forward, anoint them with oil while yelling "FIRE!" and the people will fall (or in my case, [i]be pulled[/i]) backward into the arms of his assistants and bodyguards (yes, he called them his "bodyguards"). Whoever doesn't fall down, Hogan will claim, is "fighting the Holy Ghost!" People will quickly get back to their feet, go back to their seats, give another large offering, come back the next day, and repeat. At the end of his meeting, he will act physically exhausted -- as if he was being physically drained by these "acts of God" and almost collapse into the arms of his men. He will be taken to the trailer/bus waiting for him outside.

I have attended one meeting of Rodney Howard Browne. Interestingly, the same sort of heaviness that I felt during a David Hogan meeting, I have felt during the meeting with Rodney Howard Browne. I felt like weeping loudly and uncontrollably because something just didn't "set right" inside of me. Yet the people will fall down, act like they are drunk, return to their seats, give a big offering, and then return to their towns in their Church vans. In our van, the other youth in my Church's youth group acted the same way on the way home as they did on the way there. They cursed, talked about movies, rock music and television, and even one fight occurred -- all with the people who had acted like spiritual "drunks" just an hour earlier.

Dear brother, I am not saying that either man is unsaved. I don't know where they stand with God any more than anyone else. I do, however, agree that we should not accept their words simply because they said them. God can certainly perform great things. In fact, I have seen many great things in both my life and in the lives of those around me. Yet I do not boast in those things in order to "set the tone" of a meeting. I do not believe that a man like Hogan is an "apostle" simply because he says so.

We need to be wise. Like you said, we need to "guard our hearts." We should guard it from both unwarranted criticism and unwarranted acceptance of such tales. Our hearts, minds and spiritual eyes should remain fixed upon Christ Jesus. We should be willing to "test the spirits" to the point of testing "everything." (I Thessalonians 5:21). Interestingly, I noticed that most people don't remember anything that either Rodney Howard Browne or David Hogan said during their "message." All they can remember were the stories of the supposedly "supernatural." Is it any wonder that this was the extent of their sermons? They spoke almost entirely about the supposed personal spiritual "manifestations" than they did anything else.

It all did ring a bit shallow to me. But you are right: We would do well to search our own hearts rather than hastily accept the claims of others.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/4/6 14:55Profile









 Re:

If we have come to conclude as a body that David Hogan is a man of God, than what shall our end be, if we can be deceived about things so simple and fundamental? If we cannot test the spirits in other men, what manner of spirit is then [i]in us[/i]? Are we but children, tossed to and fro by the waves of different doctrine, and quite unacquainted with the heart of the Living God? Even to the point of praising men, and being flattered and uplifted by them, all this in the name of God.

A couple of years ago, when I heard of Hogan, I was excited. My intellectual faith at the time needed some "bolstering," I thought, so I explored different testimonies by people who claimed to have done the "greater works." I wanted to see so I would believe. My zeal for achievement, which enveloped a soul that felt insignificant and inferior, and desperate to prove herself before the Lord, was the most I could offer. So men like Hogan had a certain appeal to my ambitions, to the innards of my uncrucified flesh. But this had little to do with knowing God. For those men were ignoring the message of repentance and surrender and were selling some cheap "Christian miracle" show, hoping to attract more people, even genually trying to stir them toward good works, thinking they were doing God a favor.

Now that I see them at times, I shiver, for I know where I have been, wholly unarmed facing those trials, with a shield of faith, but with no belt, no sword. I was thinking that I could make a difference in the world for Jesus in my own strength--and in my own mind. What I thought was good, I tried to reproduce, to act it out. But this was all flesh. The self wanted to raise himself in ministry, to feel more useful and important--to raise the dead, heal the sick, cure the broken-hearted... when [i]his own[/i] heart wasn't yet broken.

What I see in Hogan is what I see in my old self: a man who hasn't died to self, preoccupied with service and achievement, self-confident and self-important, having not the Spirit, walking in the imaginations of his own fleshly mind, having hardened his heart to the soft voice of the Spirit of God, justifying himself that he is doing "greater works" in the name of God. But that shrill, almost mocking voice, that lack of gentleness and self-control, that fleshly agitation and self-aggrandizement--how can these be of God? Or at least of THE GOD I have known? Is this the Spirit that convicts the world of sin, of righteousness, of judgment? But the Apostle Paul wrote about this to the Thessalonians:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2Th 2:9 [i]The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan[/i], [i][u]with all power, signs, and lying wonders[/u][/i],
2Th 2:10 [i]and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.[/i]
2Th 2:11 [i]And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,[/i]
2Th 2:12 [i]that they all may be condemned [u]who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness[/u].[/i]

If we accept men like David Hogan or Benny Hinn, what shall we do when the Antichrist himself shows up in the end "with all power, signs, and lying wonders?" Will we eagerly and naively embrace him as our blessed Lord? "My sheep hear My voice," the Lord Jesus said. If we miss the voice of God, if we don't hear what the Spirit says to us, we have missed [i]everything[/i], our very life even. For "the Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing."

I read some from Art Katz's book [i]Reality[/i] today about Elijah and the voice of the Lord. Here is the passage:


[u]The Voice of the Master[/u]

And the word of the Lord came unto him, saying,

[i]"Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan.

And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there." (1 Kings 17:2–4)[/i]

Had not Elijah been so joined to the Lord, he might have thought, upon receiving this word, "Uh oh, that’s not God’s voice. I’m wise to wiles of the enemy; I know what he’s up to. That devil just wants to get me out of the wilderness and divert me from my appointed task. And ravens! Why, that’s the last kind of instrumentality an all-wise God would use to feed His prophet. They’re unclean birds of prey, scavengers, garbage eaters. This is obviously just a satanic attempt to destroy me." But we read at the beginning of the next verse: "So he went and did according unto the word of the Lord." (verse 5a)

How did Elijah know that he was hearing the voice of the Lord? He knew in the only way that any of us can: he was familiar with the accents, the tone, the character of his God. That familiarity and knowledge is not born in a day, but is the result of repeated hearings and repeated acts of obedience.

I once spoke on the subject of God’s still small voice at an open-air meeting on the campus of a California college. At the completion of the talk some radical students, wholly vexed by my presentation, came over to me. One of them snarled, "How do you know if you’re hearing God’s voice or Satan’s?" I thought, "The children of this world are wiser than the children of light. Would to God that God’s children would ask such questions as this." I stroked my chin, trying to think of an answer. I did not have a little instant handbook, with alphabetically arranged sets of questions and answers, to quickly consult: "Let’s see, V, voice." No. I am a completely hopeless character unless God be made unto me wisdom and knowledge.

Under my breath, behind my chin-stroking hand, I prayed, "Lord, give me wisdom. Speak to this boy. He’s asking a crucial question." In that moment, my eye fell on a big shaggy mutt moving through the many knots of people who were still standing around. There was a noisy confusion in that place, a tumult of many heated voices. In the midst of all that, that dog was not just aimlessly wandering; it was moving on course, right on target. I said to my inquirer, "Say, fella, you see that mutt? It’s not even a pedigree, but in this chaotic welter of voices, it has heard the voice of its master, and it’s going." Elijah too heard this Master’s voice so he went and did according unto the word of the Lord.

Are we, as His people, willing to take the chance of believing, acting, and then discovering that we have missed God’s true direction? This might sound scary, but I’ll tell you something wonderful about our God: He will always bail you out.

I was leaving a meeting one night, wholly tired, and spent, and couldn’t think straight. I was only thinking of getting to a bed. As I was just about to get out of that room, a woman clutched at my sleeve as I went by.

"Brother Katz?"

"Yes."

"Will you answer one question for me?"

"I’ll try."

"On the way to the meeting tonight, as I was driving by myself, there was a hitchhiker by the side of the road, and for the first moment, I had an impulse to pick him up. Then the thought came to me, ‘How would it look for a Christian woman all by herself in a car, picking up a strange man?’ And I didn’t do it. What should I have done?"

She looked at me expectantly. I just gazed back at her with my tired eyes and said without even thinking (which is when I am at my best—or, more accurately, when His perfection meets with the least interference from me), "I believe that you should have stopped to pick him up. If your life is surrendered to the Lord and if it’s His to command, you should obey that first impulse. I’ll tell you what—even if it would have been a mistake, the Lord would have redeemed it."

He is the great Redeemer. God shall use even the errors of those who have acted out of real love for Him to teach them how to better discern His voice. How else shall we learn?

[i]And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28)[/i]

Getting to know the Lord’s voice is inextricably linked to understanding His way. Why would God choose ravens to feed a prophet? How foolish and illogical. Yet God will choose those things which are foolish in the world’s estimation to confound the worldly-wise. (see 1 Corinthians 1:18–31)

I would have been suspicious if the voice which Elijah heard had said, "There shall be a Jewish caterer to sustain thee with three square meals a day, nosh before bedtime, and the best gefilte fish this side of the Jordan." When I heard "ravens," I thought, "Ah, that’s my God."

He is a God Who chose, when He penetrated time-space history in bodily form, to be born in a stable. Almost all of the Jews of that generation rejected their King. They knew neither the voice of God nor His distinctive way. There is nothing more necessary for the people of God of our generation than the appropriation of that knowledge which comes as a consequence of walking with the Author of grace, day after day and year after year.

 2008/4/6 15:55









 Re: David Hogan?



I am wondering if anyone has read destinysweet's post, (as no-one has commented on it), which echoes a previous thread called 'Healing the Soul', started by John173 some time ago, which also was geared towards brethren, particularly.

EDIT: I could have picked a couple of doctrinal points, but this really gets down to being prepared to receive from Jesus like those members of the multitudes who followed Him for days, [i]hoping[/i] to receive from Him. end edit.

You all know I agree with this, and have said many times that the Church is weak because its members do not address these needs (which are common to man).

destiny, thank you for the time you took in preparing such a clear exposition of the relationship between the minister and the ministry, and how God prepares each of us for the ministry He gives us. I learned and was encouraged... 'the Holy Spirit cares very much' is a timely reminder to me, personally.

It is easy to find a worldly philosophical answer which softens the blow of any of the possible endings we face when we offer the word of God according to His direction, but I see this is not what He is after - but a more Christ-like transformation as a result of honestly facing the fallout.


[i]'My ears prick up when I hear someone say..I don't care if I am recieved,or if they recieve my words..because I know the Holy Spirit cares very much if they don't recieve the truth..So I know this one has yet to understand the workings of his own soul in this denial of care..God brings us not to a hardened stonelike place in our hearts,..but rather to a soft and tenderhearted place,that is not afraid or unwilling to suffer..we don't always grieve because it is we who are rejected ..no.. but if we feel hurt it is mandatory to admit it..not holding onto the emotion..but not denying it either, asking for the divine perspective..How would you have me see this..in time we will be trained to know the higher perspective..the compassion that flows towards those who are blinded by doubt and unbelief..the caution we all rightly feel due to the reality of false signs and wonders..we can praise others for their dilligence to test and try us..they may see something we are blind to and with the meekness of wisdom trust God to settle it all in our hearts and minds as well.

In dividing between soul and spirit..through the bone to get to the marrow..I am becoming more adept at sensing when my hard stance is bone without the lifegiving marrow of His Spirit.I am fortunate in being made a woman..we are known to be more intouch with our emotions..I know it is difficult for men to give much heed to the emotional part of their being,oftimes it is considered weak,feminine to be rightly sensitive..but God gave us emotions..God is an emotional God..Jesus was emotional..perfectly so..He does not do away with our souls..He transforms them to be conformed to Christ.

I have known many men who have come from radical pasts..who have been used of God mightily only to fall prey to many weaknesses due to an inability to determine where they needed healing in their souls..this being left as unimportant to allow God to deal with,or for them to pay attention to..as something too uncomfortable to sit still long enough to be given clear insight into.and so they were made weak where they thought themselves too strong to bother giving attention to... this became their Achilles heel..they grow everywhere else but in the very place they would someday needed to have had the understanding..it also hinders them from being able to rightly address other's problems effectively. The Counselor aspect of Christ's ministry in us is left undeveloped..we are not able to be utilized to lead others were we have been unwilling to go ourselves.

When God has His way with me in tearing down my prideful barriers..I see that I do care..it is grieveous to God that I not be accepted..for me to not acknowledge the pain it causes me and God is to be in denial of what is true..better for me to weep and be free of any harsh tough edgyness that will eventually get in mine and others way..this saying 'I do not care!" in whatever the circumstance is nothing more than a hardening of the heart..a self protective unrighteous shield against suffering..because there is suffering in rejection..we don't know how to embrace the suffering for righteousness sake very well at all,we have to be trained in this..it is not natural to man..it is heavenly.

Many of the folks who are called out to do these more obvious works..or who face great dangers are misunderstood by those who have never known such a life..a common mistake many make is to see the outward dangers as being the greatest obstacles..we are wowed by this stuff..action hero stuff..but if you'd ever been involved in a calling that faces danger you would soon find..God has abundantly provided for all this..it is all dialed in for you..maybe with men it does not appear to be so..perhaps you are always thinking you could fight your way out of anything that got physical unless you were too outnumbered..but God impressed upon me when I don't try to defend myself ,more than likely the angels will step in and perform their function...if I am relying on my own strength they probably will not be moving due to my mindset..Many underestimate the fact that God does not send where He does not defend..also..He gives you the ticket right before the train..(from Corrie ten Boom's story)should you be called to leave behind your body because of some evil doers wicked plan..all is provided in the stand and deliver dept.,grace enabling us to get the job done.

Where our action figure type ministers are in the most danger is in what comes against them on the inside..will we ,as one with them ,know what we are looking at when we see that they have not had a chance for their soul to catch up to what God is doing with their yielded spirit..It is God who is doing the work through their spirit which is one with Christ..while the oftimes immature soul trails behind. This is how I come to see it..If I am not given any down time to process what has transpired during times where alot is happening in a constant and prolonged period of time..our soul needs maintaining..where have I been wounded and not forgiven,have I become proud because of this great favor..has Satan planted something subtle that will cause me trouble should I not recognize his scheme? Knowing my own history helps me to be watchful over the places I have fallen before..but it also helps me be more firm..and honest with myself.

We do not like to admit that we are not already so spiritual that we never need to watch over our own souls..this is why God has provided everyone else who can see you much more clearly..they are not as invested in believing that you are perfect and in no need of help. Although many become blinded by someone's calling or gifts..thus swallowing everything they say and do,defending them like a shield..these identify with the gift..the calling..usually aspiring to a similar one..we are to aspire to be like Jesus..we are to be faithful to our selves..our whole body to help maintain one another's health..spirit soul and body as called of God..when you have a person who is not very emotionally mature..has little understanding regarding his own soul..which does not always mean they will be obviously overly emotional..it can be the opposite...they can be cut off from the wholesome aspect of a transformed soul..mind will and emotions..you can float for a time..operating in the spirit..as God deems it so..but there comes the time in every believer's life when they will be brought to see their need to allow God to work in their emotions.If not they just grow harder and more rigid and brittle lacking in emotional insight and become entangled in the works,office or calling being 'who' they are,not something God does through them. this is to lose the innocense of a being a child of God.

Without the needed balance,'their' ministry or what they identify with is all tangled up with what makes them 'important'or their 'proof' that they are in right standing with God..how can we be in right standing with God if we have hardened against our own body. When we say we don't care we have become hardened.

For years when people asked what do you do..I would answer something like..it is not what I do..it is what I am..I am a child of the living God...'[/i]


GW North also gave this explanation. He would put it this way ... 'Well, you see.... I'm a [i]son[/i] of God'.

:-)

 2008/4/6 16:22









 Re: David Hogan?


Hello Jesusinme,

I wonder if you could give further definition to your advice, please?

Quote:
guard the door of our own hearts

Thank you.


(Btw, I know the verse which says we guard against falling into a [i]sin[/i] which we become aware another is committing, while trying to lead him to safer spiritual ground, but this is very far from being unwilling to be [i]healed in soul[/i], so as to be able to suffer for the Lord's glory.

 2008/4/6 16:29









 Re:

Quote:
I am not Hogan's judge, thank God, but I am responsible to judge fruit and doctrine, that will protect me from deception, as is every Christian. I hope that many will know Jesus as Lord through that ministry, but if it is a one man show, it shouldn't be.



People may know Jesus from this ministry, but this will definitely be "another Jesus!" You are right, brother, those MARK and AVOID. Don't worry about being "harsh". The voice of truth is as sharp as a razorblade.

Quote:

jarona wrote:
I rebuke anyone on here who looks down on this man. You go and lay your life down for Christ and give up your home and your wife and your children and everything you have and your pride and all that you are and lay it down at the foot of the Cross and go to those who have not heard the name of Jesus and give your life for those people. Then you come on here and make a post and make negative comments about an imperfect human who has done great things for Christ.



Are you giving your life for those people or for the Lord? And has He required your life of you? And if you have, again, how dare you go to the people unless you have been SENT by Him first?

Jarona, do you think there is a difference between people who [i]claim[/i] to have given their life to the Lord [i]and[/i] those who [i]actually[/i] have done it? Are we not to judge every tree by its fruit? Surely, there are many who do "great things for the Lord", but to many He will say on the last day, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity." So the question here is not about the greater works, but about the heart of the man who did them.

Quote:

You go and see the dead raised, the blind eyes being opened, and thousands coming into the kingdom then you come and judge people who have done such things for God and have shared much about it. If you haven't done that then go back to your bed room in your own shame and repent and humble yourself and surrender yourself to God and forsake all to follow Jesus and start believing what the Word of God says.



Is this a spirit of competition that I am sensing? Do we share in the glory of what the Lord has done through our instrumentality? May that never be! May we never make a boast of it! How can our flesh glory in His presence? This will be the shame. That we make the pretense, but we lack the reality.

Quote:

If you are not doing what the Bible says you should be doing, then don't make comments that are negative about people who are doing what God said to do.



Two false premises here. First, that we are disobedient to God, and, second, that we are not to judge those who claim to have been sent by God to do His work, based on truth. Truly, God alone judges. We either accept (subject ourselves to and align ourselves with) or reject His righteous jugdments.

Quote:

I am sick of theological cowards that aren't willing to go to lands who are serving idols and give up there lives for Jesus.



Are you defending the man or the Lord here, Jarona? Does a man need someone to defend him or shield him, but the Lord himself? Is the testimony of man "more valid" than the testimony of God? When the Lord Jesus was accused without a cause, He opened not his mouth, and as a lamb He was led to the slaughter. Did He snap at the Pharisees, "Who are you to judge Me? See how much I have done for God and what have you done to [i]earn the right[/i] to judge Me?" Another Spirit dwelt in the Lord Jesus: not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit of God. It was a spirit of humility and brokenness; the Lord was "a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief," nothing like the macho, self-exalting religious people of His--and of our--time. In fact, it is that same spirit He rebuked in Peter, when the disciple advised Him not to go and die in Jerusalem:

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"

Mat 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, [i]"Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for [u]you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men[/u]."[/i]

 2008/4/6 16:30









 Re: David Hogan?



Hi Chris,

I respect that you have attended one of David Hogan's meetings. There are a couple of points you make, though, which I don't quite follow.

Quote:
the messages usually involve storytelling rather than a presentation of the Gospel.

Does this mean you believe Jesus was mistaken in His ministry methods? That He should not have done 'mighty works' for the purpose of drawing people to faith and repentance? (Matt 11, Luke 10)

If Jesus did not expound the scriptures to His disciples until after His resurrection - apart from Luke 4:21 ... 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears', - is it actually [i]wrong[/i] to present the gospel in the form of stories, as He did, and those who reported on His ministry must have done?

Quote:
he will act physically exhausted -- as if he was being physically drained by these "acts of God" and almost collapse into the arms of his men.

This is not an uncommon experience among those who minister under the power of the Spirit; my impression from listening to Carter Conlon, is that it can follow particularly powerful moves of God in mission situations. I can believe (making sense of destinysweet's discourse) that this would be all the more true of someone who had not received strengthening from God in the parts of their life which most needed it.

Quote:
fantastic stories of the supernatural...

They spoke almost entirely about the supposed personal spiritual "manifestations" than they did anything else...

Another question, if I may, please: do you believe God would rather [i]not[/i] have His mighty works publicised?


destiny said: 'better for me to weep and be free of any harsh tough edgyness that will eventually get in mine and others way...'


Isn't this that destiny describes - the 'harsh tough edgyness' - of men like Hogan, what you are uncomfortable with, (as well as the association being made between money and prayer) - and perhaps also, you do not believe it is [u]God[/u] doing the works through him?


I'll be honest, I don't quite know what to think, except I see a parallel between destiny's testimony, and Art Katz's testimony, which rings true in my experience also.

Art said
Quote:
God shall use even the errors of those who have acted out of real love for Him to teach them how to better discern His voice. [b]How else shall we learn?[/b]

Any ideas?



 2008/4/6 17:20
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi dorcas…

Quote:
I respect that you have attended one of David Hogan's meetings.

Actually, I attended an entire series of meetings at a Church that I attended several years ago. This is the same Assembly of God congregation that morphed from a classic Pentecostal fellowship into a full blown charismatic prosperity mega-fellowship. David Hogan requested to conduct meetings and the pastor eagerly obliged.
Quote:
”storytelling”
Does this mean you believe Jesus was mistaken in His ministry methods? That He should not have done 'mighty works' for the purpose of drawing people to faith and repentance? (Matt 11, Luke 10)

If Jesus did not expound the scriptures to His disciples until after His resurrection - apart from Luke 4:21 ... 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears', - is it actually wrong to present the gospel in the form of stories, as He did, and those who reported on His ministry must have done?

The difference, I suppose, is that David Hogan’s meetings and stories did not at all resemble the verbal ministry of Christ as recorded in the Word. Christ taught in parables (about fishing, farming, etc…) in order to expound on the truths that he was teaching to the fisherman and farmers (and children) of that day. The “stories” that our Lord told were filled with hidden meaning that were meant to illustrate the nature of God and draw men, women and children closer to Him. Our Lord did not go about boasting about his miraculous works while speaking to the crowds. He spoke about His Father. He didn’t speak about the supernatural; He demonstrated it in true meekness.

David Hogan’s messages, however, were filled with his own claims of about supernatural events that he either performed or witnessed. He talked about HIMSELF over and over again. He talked about raising the dead, healing the blind, restoring limbs to the limbless, etc… Hogan talked about being physically chased by Satan (invisible, but polite enough to open and close the Church gate). Hogan spoke about talking to a huge demonic owl. Hogan spoke boldly about himself. He must have uttered his claim to be both a prophet, apostle and man-of-God more times than I could count. He warned people about not “heeding the words” of the man-of-God. Instead of telling stories about the work of Christ, he talked about his own “gifts” and “manifestations.”
Quote:
“he will act physically exhausted -- as if he was being physically drained by these "acts of God" and almost collapse into the arms of his men.”
________________________________________
This is not an uncommon experience among those who minister under the power of the Spirit; my impression from listening to Carter Conlon, is that it can follow particularly powerful moves of God in mission situations. I can believe (making sense of destinysweet's discourse) that this would be all the more true of someone who had not received strengthening from God in the parts of their life which most needed it.


David Hogan boasted about his weakness at the end of each meeting. He even claimed that he sometimes must use a wheelchair because his strength is drained. Is this Christ-like? Is this Paul-like? Or is this more Benny Hinn-like? At the end of his meetings, Hogan would walk out in the arms of his bodyguards. One time, he was even CARRIED out. Is it really that physically draining to spread the Good News? Where is the joy of the Lord (which is our strength)? I have heard and read many stories about men of God who preached under dreadful conditions. I heard firsthand of Leonard Ravenhill’s trips as a young preacher around the UK in a cart. I’ve read of David Wilkerson’s trips into the ghettos of New York. I’ve read of David Livingstone’s trips into Africa. I’ve read of Charles Finney preaching in 19th Century New York. I’ve read about Paul’s mission trips in the Book of Acts. Yet all of these men were greatly strengthened by the work of the Lord. They didn’t collapse from physical deterioration of the body after they preached. Even if they were completely exhausted, we never knew it. These men of God didn’t go about boasting about collapsing as if it were a virtue or result of the “anointing” (as claimed by David Hogan).

Sister, I have worked in the mission field. The physical labor was certainly hard work. We worked nonstop for two weeks with very little sleep and no showers in the cold huts and caves of the Sierra Madre Occidental. We worked by the sweat of our brows all day long and labored with our voices during the evenings. Yet the meetings that were conducted actually invigorated us. We would feel the strength of the Lord as we witnessed individuals who gave their lives to the Lord. It is amazingly refreshing to see the Lord work in a person who has never heard the Name of Jesus.
Quote:
Another question, if I may, please: do you believe God would rather not have His mighty works publicised?

Yes, but ONLY if the end of this is only the exaltation and glorification of God. The claims of David Hogan are just that -- personal claims about what HE did “for God.” One dear old sister who attended those meetings confided that the problem with his meetings is that there is “far too much David Hogan and almost no exaltation of Jesus.”
Quote:
destiny said: 'better for me to weep and be free of any harsh tough edgyness that will eventually get in mine and others way...'


Isn't this that destiny describes - the 'harsh tough edgyness' - of men like Hogan, what you are uncomfortable with, (as well as the association being made between money and prayer) - and perhaps also, you do not believe it is God doing the works through him?

What does she mean by “harsh tough edgyness?” David Hogan was not harsh – he was rude. He was impolite. Even from the pulpit, Hogan was extremely cold (almost disgusted) at anyone who would dare question his “anointing.” Is this “edgy?” He strutted about on stage in his cowboy boots and cowboy hat while telling his “tales of the supernatural.” He chided any unbelief in his stories – equating unbelief in David Hogan with unbelief in Christ. He even said that those who didn’t fall down by the power of the Holy Spirit were actually “fighting the Holy Ghost.” Is this “harsh tough edgyness?” Nah…it is just a rude personality.

As far as the association between Hogan and money, where should I begin? He took up multiple offerings each night. He often took a “traditional offering” at the beginning of the meetings (after the songs were finished) and then one at the end. His money message mirrored those told at most prosperity churches, although Hogan claimed to live in a similar manner as the villagers that he claims to work with.
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I'll be honest, I don't quite know what to think, except I see a parallel between destiny's testimony, and Art Katz's testimony, which rings true in my experience also.

Art said
Quote:
________________________________________
God shall use even the errors of those who have acted out of real love for Him to teach them how to better discern His voice. How else shall we learn?
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Any ideas?

Actually, I don’t know exactly what to think either. The only reason that I am writing this is in response to those who get upset at any question of David Hogan’s claims. I know many, many missionaries and pastors in Mexico who dismiss David Hogan as a dangerous self-promoter. While he does seem to promote himself over and over again during his meetings, I would limit my criticism there. He never taught any doctrine or sermons (except what you could pick out of his supernatural tales). He didn’t take up an altar call for the unsaved. He didn’t talk about Jesus or the Scriptures much at all, actually. His messages centered almost entirely around his tales.

Has David Hogan raised over 500 men from the dead? Has he healed men and women every day in Mexico? Has he really spoken with an 8-12 foot tall owl? Was he really physically chased by Satan through his village? Are all of the people who do not get “slain in the spirit” at his meetings really “fighting the Holy Ghost?” Does Hogan really get so weak at the end of each night that he has to use a wheelchair or be carried out of the building? Is the reason that so few (if any) miracles are displayed while he is in the United States due to the fact that there is so much more faith amongst the (supposed) witch doctors in Mexico? Ironically, there is plenty of “faith” in his meetings to get “slain in the spirit,” have holy “convulsions” on the carpet, speak in prophesies, etc… -- but not enough to get healed.

I am trying to be extremely careful to not criticize the man. At the same time, I would like to warn others to be careful about his claims. He is not an apostle simply because he claims to be one. He is not a miracle worker simply because he says so. Yet he became verbally upset at the thought of questioning his claims or stories. I don’t really think that Paul would have become so upset. He didn’t get upset when the Bereans searched the Scriptures before believing him. Jesus didn’t get so upset when Thomas at first did not believe. So yes, we need to be extremely careful with men like this.

At the meetings that I attended, I was astonished by the multitudes of people who took David Hogan at HIS word. The pastor even claimed that those who questioned the meetings were "attending the wrong Church." This is NOT the manner of examination that we are commanded in the New Testament.

“Test everything. Hold on to the good.” – I Thessalonians 5:21

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2008/4/6 18:15Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Hogan

Chris, thank you for what you brought forward here earlier.

[url=http://www.pfo.org/exploits.htm]The Remarkable Exploits of David Hogan[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/4/6 20:24Profile





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