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 Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification

Ron, I listened to your "convention" messages last night, and I heard you say that you believe in Instant Sanctification.

I came from a different school of thought where when one receives the holy Spirit He begins to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Is this not progressive sanctification where He works His righteousness into our lives? Afterall one does not bear fruit immediately after conversion as Jesus speaks about the seed, the blade, and then the ear in the corn. You didn't quite go into it in the message, but could you eleborate further? Thank you.

By the way, I was moved by the message, be encouraged.

LS

 2006/1/25 18:13









 Re: Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification

Quote:
Afterall one does not bear fruit immediately



Just curious as to what type of fruit you meant is not bore instantly. There is what John Baptist said, fruits meet for repentance.

What type of fruit is NOT bore instantly, and what type of fruit IS bore instantly?

I would say that the first fruit bore instantly is complete repentance from all sin. Without repentance there is no salvation. Repentance is the undeniable condition to salvation, as it is sin which seperates us from God, and Christ who reconciles us through the cross by taking away our sin. Then once the cup is clean (repentance), it begins to start being filled and perfected in the fruits of the spirit (growing in grace)

Is repentance neccesary for salvation, and if so how much repentance? How much sin does it take to be seperated from God? Was Adam seperated from God over one sin, and we can have a relationship with God and have many or any sins in our lives?

 2006/1/25 19:45
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

I wanted to bring this back up as I have been greatly blessed by Ron's teachings from the Rora 2003 series as well as the others and especially the Truth That Is In Jesus. My itunes counter has me having listened to them an average of about 10 times each. Some are more like 20+. Who knows, but I need to listen to them many more times. I have integrated a lot of his teachings into my own version of these things- so please don't blame him for what I am about to say. ;-)

When I first heard "Instant Sanctification" in the Rora series I almost went over the edge. I come from a strict holiness background that is coupled with Finney's Oberlin type soteriology (salvation theology). What that means is, "one wrong move and you are on the same footing with God as a sinner." This is also known as [i]salvation via sanctification[/i]. I greatly resented the strictness of the truly legalistic version of holiness. Don't salt your food, no sweets, co coffee, and after all, 'flowers cumbereth the ground"- so lets dig them up and make better use of the ground with a vegetable garden. I could go on and on with this, but its not necessary.

Jesse asks some truly wonderful questions:

Is repentance neccesary for salvation, and if so how much repentance?

Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of direction. Only God can answer this question as I believe with Finney that [u]God will point[/u] to His main controversy with the unrepentant sinner and expect them to respond in turning from it. In this I see the Holy Spirit taking on the role of our Lord in the earth- similar to when He spoke to the rich young ruler. Almost as if we could hear His voice saying, "If thou shalt be [i]perfect[/i] go and sell what thou hast (or what ever He is pointing at to make right) and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven." Now, some would say, "Thats works!" I would respond that it is (and I am borrowing Ron's terms here) "response to revelation." God told the Leper to 'dip 7 times' and to do so was response to revelation or what we can simply call "[i]Faith[/i]". When God speaks we must respond and when we do - it is faith. In this I see repentance and faith as inseperable. We turn from something to Christ in response to the revelation we have when under conviction and it is the first real step of 'faith'. If we stiffen our necks- we go away sorrowful in unbelief. It is not enough to believe and tremble as many often do under the heavy hand of Holy Spirit conviction- the devils do that (tremble, etc). We have to respond rightly in obedience.



Quote:
How much sin does it take to be seperated from God? Was Adam seperated from God over one sin, and we can have a relationship with God and have many or any sins in our lives?



Again, I think that a good understanding of justification by faith has to be coupled with any answer to this question. However, any controversy with God has to be resolved if we are going to maintain a relationship. When I say controversy I am not referring to something someone told you or what you may have heard preached; I am referring specifically to God putting His Finger on something and demanding that we turn from that thing. If we turn not, the hand of chastisement [i]will[/i] fall and it will come out of love from a Father to a son. If we never turn back then what? Thats the question in my mind. What happens when we cease to respond rightly to revelation. It almost inevitably has to mean we cease to walk in faith. Especially if we understand that we are taking millions of steps of faith in our walk of faith. What happens when we stop walking by faith? What happens when we turn aside completely from the revelation that God has applied to our heart of His Will? Very very dangerous.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2006/1/26 8:45Profile









 Re: Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification

Jesse quote

Quote:
Just curious as to what type of fruit you meant is not bore instantly. There is what John Baptist said, fruits meet for repentance.



What I meant concerning fruit is the fruit of the Spirit which are these:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance.

The reason why I said that fruit is not instant is because of this scripture in relations to the fruit 'longsuffering'.

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; v4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

In regards to fruit meet for repentance, I believe that to mean something entirely different than the fruit of the Spirit. For example,

Lets say you owe money to your brother. Your brother has argued tooth and nail with you for his money back. In the process of time the incident is not talked about perhaps years but there remains bitterness. You hear that a man is baptizing in the wilderness and you go and see whats going on, and you are moved by the preaching of John when he says to go make things right with your nieghbour before coming to God. Thats what that idiom means, 'fruit meet for repentance'.

John is basically saying, "If you really are sorry for your sins, then go and make resitutions, reconcile to your brother, return what is not yours." That to God is fruit meet for repentance.

This type of repentance must continue until the dept is paid, then you are free to serve God, if not we continue to be a servent to the lender until is paid even the last farthing.

 2006/1/26 15:38









 Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification

help!!!

Where can I listen or read this?

I would like to hear it.

 2006/1/26 18:53
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re: Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification

It is probably on this site. Just look in the B's. Ron has several articles and sermons on "the index."


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2006/1/26 18:56Profile









 Re: Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification

You can find all of Ron Baileys messages here:

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=137]Ron Baileys Messages[/url]

 2006/1/26 19:11
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
This type of repentance must continue until the dept is paid, then you are free to serve God, if not we continue to be a servent to the lender until is paid even the last farthing.



In this case I know a whole lot of people who shouldn't be serving God ;-) ...

I remember a particularly helpful conversation with Ron and Jeff on this subject...one thing that made a difference to me was clarifying the difference between a complete yielding to God versus complete sinless perfection.

I had brought up a familiar analogy by Amy Carmichael, wherein she compared santification to the process of purifying gold through fire.

This is a subject that has been hard for me to fully understand. As I remember, Ron challenged me to consider santification as a position of whole surrender/trust/commitment, and to imagine it as a yes or no question...as opposed to a gradual yes.

A high school basketball player may not be as perfect in the ways of basketball as a professional in the NBA, but nevertheless, the high school player can be totally devoted to the game, his team, and his coach. Likewise, a child one year in the Lord may indeed be sanctified in their heart, while even the eldest holiness preacher may be secretly a million miles off the mark. (I think this dovetails with Robert's comments regarding "response to revelation.")

Forgive me Ron for sanding off the finer points but I was hoping to at least introduce this point into the conversation.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2006/1/27 0:21Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification

Quote:
Ron, I listened to your "convention" messages last night, and I heard you say that you believe in Instant Sanctification.


Hi Loveslave, it depends on what you mean by sanctification, Hebrews 10:9-10 says:

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This says we have been sanctified (perfect tense i.e. The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.) once for all, this does not happen over a period of time.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2006/1/27 2:44Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Ron Bailey Instant Sanctification

loveslave's

Quote:
Is this not progressive sanctification where He works His righteousness into our lives?


If you listen to some of those messages you will find that I tend to be a little pedantic (a little pedantic!!!!) in my use of words. I sometimes jokingly say that an evangelist can get away with anything but a teacher has to watch his words. (James 3:1 tells us that our judgement is going to be more strict than that of others).

I am particulary 'fussy' about Bible words. There is sometimes a tendency to say 'when I say 'sanctification' I mean...'; this is what I call [url=http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/23101.html]humpty dumpty-ism[/url] after Lewis Caroll's famous character who asserted that when he used a word it 'means what I want it to mean and no more'.

If we 'mis-use' Bible words we undermine the scriptural revelation and I could give you many examples of continuing distress in the lives of the saints simply because they are using the wrong words. The words we use have a continual effect upon the way we 'think' and consequently 'act'.

Bible words seldom have definitions but they have histories and part of the Bible's purpose is to show us how 'God uses the word'. For this reason not even a Bible dictionary or exhaustive knowledge of classical Greek is the best preparation for Bible study; the best preparation is Bible reading... slowly, slowly, slowly. :-)

Here are the first to Bible references to the word 'sanctification';Gen. 2:3 (KJVS) And God blessed the seventh day, and [u]sanctified[/u] it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Ex. 13:2 (KJVS) [u]Sanctify[/u] unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine. Now please see if your own 'definition' of sanctification will fit into these 'first lessons' on the topic of sanctification. (Perhaps you have heard of the 'first mention principle'?) I am not mocking you but trying to make a point when I say "did God separate the Sabbath day to his own unique ownership... progressively or instantly?" Did God separate the firstborn to himself ... progressively or instantly? In fact, 'progressive sanctification' is a contradiction in terms if we are usuing the word 'sanctification' carefully.

Some years ago I sat down to a family meal in the home of friends in Ireland. A huge 'Shepherd's Pie' was on the table. We were awaiting the father of the family as he returned from work. The wife cut a section out of the pie and placed it on a plate saying "put that in the oven for your dad when he gets home". I said "do you know that what you have just done is a perfect illustration of the word 'sanctify'?"

The Hebrew word 'qadash' literally means to 'cut out a portion for a specific use'. Places that were cut out were called "Sanctuary's" and you can find the prefix in place names such as "Kadeshbarnea". These were 'holy places' ie places set aside for holy purposes. Again, I am not mocking but being intentionally pedantic when I say that you cannot have 'percentage sanctification'. It is either set apart exclusively for God or it isn't. Here is a bible cameo illustrating the word 'sanctification':“Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.”
(Ex. 19:5-6, KJVS)From the moment that the nation submitted to this covenant they were "God's". Israel was 'cut out of the pie of the earth's nations and placed separately for God's exclusive use'. That is the essence of sanctification.

I don't intend to be crude but think of a wedding in which the bride promises to 'keep myself only unto thee as long as we both shall live'. How would you react if she said 'prgressively'. There is an old 'colonial' joke about an ex-English colony in Africa who decided that they would change to driving on the 'right' side of the road. The nation was not known for its efficient operations and a rumour spread that they had decided to change the law so that vehicles now drove on the 'right' side of the road BUT the change they said would be made 'progressively and would not be mandatory!!' :-P Can you imagine?

The word you are searching for is not sanctification but [u]glorification[/u]. The first has to be 100% from the first moment, the latter will go on throughout life. “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.” (2Cor. 3:18, NKJV) Sanctification is a crisis, glorification is a process. :-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/1/27 4:41Profile





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