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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron
you wrote :

Quote:
I may get into trouble for this... oftentimes the words of scripture are not aimed at our head but at our hearts.



someone get a whip ready,Ron's acting bad! :-P

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Of course, He is all of these things but He "speaks to our condition" as the Quakers used to say. That means he doesn't just lob words into space but that He applies them particularly to where we are. My old Bible College principal used to say that 'Jesus stood for 'Just Exactly Suits Us Sinners'. He just Exactly Suits Us Saints' too. He reveals Himself in unique roles at unique times.



i agree bro, the 7 churches are representative f 7 different spiritual states. the way He introduces Himself to 7 churches is somehow related to how they will be dealt with if they need to repent (thought that was interesting)to the church at ephesus He said He was the one who walked among the 7 golden candlesticks and then says if they don't repent He will take away their candlestick etc.

Quote:
Words evoke memories and emotions and the book of the Revelation was not written to people 'with time on their hands and a peculiar aptitude for solving puzzles' but to a panting, huddling flock who were at risk of their lives. They did not 'need' a timetable of events for the distant future but a 'word in season' which would touch them deeply and evoke memories of God's faithfulness and power. This would be far too simplistic but I can sum up the book of the Revelation in a single six single-syllable word sentence...



i see what you're saying here but my approach to all this is as bro graftedbranch said later on, something to the effect of in seeing all this (or in my case seeing it all literally) causes me to seek the Lord and say "Lord what does this all mean???" the 7 stars Christ is holding are the 7 candlesticks are the 7 churches so that's explained. isn't that the purpose of the Lord having this book written that way to evoke powerful memories of God's power and compel us to seek Him more earnestly? that's the effect it has on me so i'm not trying to solve the puzzle, just seeking the Lord to reveal to me it's meaning (at least as much as He would have me know)

bro Ron if i were as smart and learned as yourself i'd have asked you for the not so simplictic explanation :-P however being foolish and unlearned simple is good for me...simple is best lest my brain be overwhelemed :-?

Quote:
Your phrase 'literal in the Spirit' might be interpreted to mean 'there are literally seven Spirits before the throne, but the word 'seven' is sign-language for 'completeness' in the Revelation; it is used constantly...Rev. 1:4,11-13,16,20-2:1; 3:1; 4:5; 5:1,5-6; 8:2,6; 10:3-4; 11:13; 12:3; 13:1; 15:1,6-16:1; 17:1,3,7,9-11; 21:9. Do I think this book is designed just for 'seven churches' No. Do I think He only hold 'seven' churches in his right hand. No. Do I think there is actually a 'lamb with seven horns and seven eyes'? No. Do I believe in a literal 'great red dragon having seven heads and seven crowns? No. Do I believe in the truth which these images stir in my heart? Passionately!



well if we've established that the 7 churches are representative of spiritual conditions then there are 7 different types of saint in these days. or at least that's how i see it. i see it has being 7 Spirits before the throne which are completeness. i guess we disagree on that part but like you i do believe the truth which those images stir in my heart as passionately as you do.

if i'm wrong about this i pray the Lord sets me straight to His glory and if you are then i pray the same. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/1/31 12:13Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron

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One of our 'friends' here on SI occasionally accuses me of being a 'literalist'; he thinks I am too literal in my 'interpretation' of scripture. I have no doubt that there



*gasp* NO, who would that be? :-P

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I have no doubt that there are folks here who don't think I am 'literalist' enough.



*gasps again* like who?? ;-)

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Apparently some future predictions are given to that when they are fulfilled we shall believe in Christ's power and person. These 'predictions' were not given to warn or to prepare a schedule of future events but so that when they were fulfilled we would know that these things had not taken God by surprise. It sounds to me as thought that sense might play in the Revelation. These things are not given as predictions so that we could create our time-tables.



God is still on the throne i assume? i feel that.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/1/31 12:27Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron
ah you're a wealth of knowledge bro

Quote:
We are working with symbolic numbers here. The whole people of the Old Covenant were 12 clans. The shewbread signified that the whole nation was given to God but in their individual significance. The number 12 seems to links with rule and government and 12 seems to take on the nature of 'the whole'. Consequently the number is always 12; the whole covenant people of God. The 12 clans originally included Levi but Levi was set apart for the service of God and then would have left 11, but the number is made up to 12 again because the clan of Joseph is sub-divided into Ephraim and Manasseh.



the original 12 tribes minus levi's since they were to tend to the tabernacle. then add the divided tribe of joseph. the Lord led me through that and brough this back to my rembrance through this discussion.

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The clan of Benjamin was almost wiped out early in Israel's history and became almost indistinguishable from Judah, so the southern kingdom is referred to in scriptures as 'Judah' although it was actually 'Judah and Benjamin' but the number has to be kept to 12 so the constituent parts keep changing.



then the nation of israel fought against the tribe of benjamin after that incident with the levite's concubine in judges 19. will have to look at ezekiel 48 more closely though.

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The omission of Dan from the list in Revelation may give us a clue to the symbolism at work here. Dan was the clan who most quickly embraced idolatry and 'is not counted' among the Covenant people. Paris Reidhead's 'shekels and shirt' sermon is all about the tribe of Dan and their apostacy. See also 1Kings 12:29-30. For the the omission of Dan from the Revelation list is a symbolic way of saying that 'apostates' are excluded from the covenant community.



mmm didn't know about the tribe of dan being he first to embrace idolatry...makes sense that such idolaters wouldn't be included among those in the covenant...thanks bro Ron!


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Farai Bamu

 2006/1/31 14:00Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Ironman
The wise know how little they know, but the really wise know that they don't even know how little 'the little they know' really is. :-D

Just a couple of controversial contributions from Charles Spurgeon;A biblical preacher, he told his congregation, ‘wants to have souls saved and Christians quickened and therefore he does not for ever pour out the vials, and blow the trumpets of prophecy. Some hearers are crazy after the mysteries of the future. Well, there are two or three brethren in London who are always trumpeting and vialing. Go and hear them if you want it, I have something else to do’ (Vol. 21, 91).

Again, addressing the students at his college, he says:
‘I am greedy after witnesses for the glorious gospel of the blessed God. 0 that Christ crucified were the universal burden of men of God. Your guess at the number of the beast, your Napoleonic speculations, your conjectures concerning a personal Antichrist — forgive me, I count them but mere bones for dogs; while men are dying and hell is filling, it seems to me the veriest drivel to be muttering about an Armageddon at Sebastopol, or Sadowa or Sedan, and peeping between the folded leaves of destiny to discover the fate of Germany. Blessed are they who read and hear the words of the prophecy of the Revelation, but the like blessing has evidently not fallen on those who pretend to expound it, for generation after generation of them have been proved to be in error by the mere lapse of time, and the present race will follow to the same inglorious sepulchre’ (Lectures to my Students, First Series, 1887, 83).

‘There is a whole Book of Revelation which I do not understand, but which I fully believe’ (Vol. 45’ 402), ‘I scarcely consider myself qualified to explain any part of the Book of Revelation, and none of the expositions I have ever seen entice me to attempt the task, (Vol. 21, 313).

Only fools and madmen are positive in their interpretations of the Apocalypse’ (The Sword and Trowel, 1867, p. 470).


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Ron Bailey

 2006/1/31 15:13Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Oh... That's about all I can say to those quote from Spurgeon.

I was thinking not too long ago... There has never been a revival birthed by prohphecy teaching that I know of and yet we have SOOO much of it in this time. I don't think prophecy is worthless or you are a madman if you teach it but I do think I agree with Spurgeons heart in this matter... let's preach the Gospel to the lost.


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Josh Parsley

 2006/1/31 15:20Profile









 Re:

Oh Lord, can it be just a coincidence, that I just came out of my quiet time and the Lord was showing me "The Mix" that is just now being birthed in the world of the Spiritual with the Scientific, etc and the complexities of it and the subtle deceitfulness of it, because it all sounds so right .... then to come here and once again find that almost 1/5th of the Bible AGAIN is being thrown out ... as in Eschatology.

I don't expect those of Spurgeon's time or any other time in mankind's history to see the urgency or "signs" that are now being "revealed" in these days, because that was not the case in their lifetimes as it is now ... but we are 'that' generation, that will see the fulfillment, and the "Strong Delusion" and if "Most" will be deceived and Fall Away from Truth ... then to throw it out for a lack of study or understanding or interest, is the most dangerous move a person of 'these days' can do.

Saving souls is #1, but without a firm foundation and "apokalupto" from the Holy Spirit on a daily basis of what is going on out there, in the setting up of this last stage of History, then we don't stand a chance. Rev 19:10 ... for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

How much did Jesus warn us about the last days ?
He says twice, in Matt 24 and Mark 13, "I have told you "ALL" things" regarding the last days.
Then there's Paul, Peter and Jude and John ... what do we do with them ?

Do we throw that much of just the N.T. away ?
Or the Spirit of prophecy's job, to keep us from "being deceived" in these days and those days yet to come, when the "spiritual" will be so demonically intertwined with the 'real', that only those who "have understanding" will be able to make it to the end.

Apply your heart to understanding, we're commanded, and all the more as we see that day approaching, we can add.

What was sealed at Daniel's time is now being revealed, chunk by chunk, but we don't care to "go there" with our thinking or studies.

It will mean the difference of whether we are given over to the strong delusion or not.

What more can I say ?

Only that we are 'commanded' to keep watch of these things.

 2006/1/31 16:32
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

In case any should think Spurgeon was indifferent to eschatology......from a letter from Spurgeon to the editor of Messiah’s Herald, written in 1874:

‘The more I read the Scriptures as to the future, the less I am able to dogmatise. I see conversion of the world, and the personal pre-millennial reign, and the sudden coming, and the judgment, and several other grand points; but I cannot put them into order, nor has anyone else done so yet. I believe every prophetical work I have ever seen (and I have read very many) to be wrong in some points. I feel more at home in preaching Christ crucified than upon any other theme, and I do believe He will draw all men unto Him’ (Pike, vol. 5, 133).


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Ron Bailey

 2006/1/31 19:05Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Ron

Quote:
The wise know how little they know, but the really wise know that they don't even know how little 'the little they know' really is.



yes indeed :smart:

i think the # priority is the preaching of the gospel as sis annie said and at the same time we must not be ignorant of what's going on. there is a balance which must be maintained and each one of us ought to seek the Lord earnestly lest we go off into left field somewhere.


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Farai Bamu

 2006/1/31 19:57Profile









 Re:

I like what the ECFs said about Eschatology.

Should I post it ?


But what I'd really like to know is, where is the person who graced us with this thread to begin with :-x ? Ha.


I still say though Ron, that Jesus did rap it up pretty clearly in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21, if that's all ya had on hand to read.
Literally too. ;-)

Keep the Peace.
Annie

 2006/1/31 20:42









 Re:

Oh Ron, just to show you how "distracted" I am ... I went off line to fill out some medical papers and it hit me ... I have one of Spurgeon's books on the Second Coming of Christ.

Just copy and paste this into Google ... Charles Spurgeon Second Coming of Christ.

You'll find he had a Lot to say about it.

Thanks
Annie

 2006/1/31 21:27





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